The True Crime Weblog Message Board

TLC wrote:Born a note Cheese

Sparrow, so you speak a da Hollandaise eh, ce ce, soi si, buono

I have a too sleep a

Mucho lovea for everyone see you in the manjana

Terry

Only a few words TLC... ghelt... frau... Hey, don't put two and two together!

Goodnight.

I am pleased to know that the Panama hat is back in style, though; thanks for that, Nikki.

http://tinyurl.com/5enrsy
Nothing new or of particular interest, ma..

DLW wrote:“if RG's team go for the shortened trial, I think it will be because they realise that in all probability, their client will be found guilty and they will therefore try to limit the damage. When I say limit the damage, I mean that there will be a third knocked off the sentence. The charges however, in a shortened trial or a full trial, would be the same. I think it is very likely that RG will be charged with 'omicidio volontario' along with 'violenza sessuale' and would therefore risk between 20 years and life with a shortened trial“….damian

Hi damian. Maybe you can help clarify something for me if you get time. Would Rudy have to give some semblance of the truth; or to the satisfaction of the prosecutors and judges in order to qualify for this 1/3 off, or reduced charges for a shortened trial? My understanding originally was that for major criminal activity the 1/3 off was not necessarily an automatic, but was up to the discretion of the Judge(s). However Frank is also saying that he would qualify for a 1/3 off for a shortened trial. I know we are operating somewhat in the dark right now. I guess they could give him a 1/3 off for a shortened trail, but at the same time tack on additional years if he isn’t forthright enough. So it would be 1/3 off of a much bigger sum. That is if he is convicted.

Hi DLW. The answer to your question is no. The third knocked off the sentence is automatic for any suspect who asks for the shortened trial, irrespective of whether they collaborate or not. (If any of the lawyers ask for the shortened trial, this will be automatically granted) In any trial the suspects rights are the same; the right to remain silent, the right to lie, the right to make spontaneous declarations to the pm, the right to participate in the trial etc.

When sentencing, the judge will take various things into consideration and then decide on the length of the sentence within the parametres specified by the law. These things are laid out in article 133.
Article 133, 2, 3) "dalla condotta contemporanea o susseguente al reato."
So the behaviour 'during and after the crime' will be taken into consideration. This may include collaborating with the police.

The judge will also way up the 'aggravanti' and the 'attenuanti' circumstances. (If there are more aggravanti than attenuanti, the latter won't count) The attenuanti can in theory, result in a reduction of a third of the sentence. Let's say someone gets 30 years at a shortened trial. This becomes 20 because it's a 'rito'. If there are attenuanti, up to a third could be knocked off the 20. I think this is highly unlikely in the case of RG for two reasons; the aggravanti are serious and will probably out weigh any attenuanti and also because of the fact that he left the country and has reportedly given somewhat ambiguous accounts of events.
The 'attenuanti' are laid out in article 62.
art 62, 6) "...adoperato spontaneamente ed efficacemente per elidere o attenuare le consequenze dannose o pericolose del reato."
Again this could include collaborating but for the reasons given above, I don't think it will be applicable here.

A general point which I've mentioned before; suspects will not be 'penalized' for invoking their right to remain silent.

http://tinyurl.com/5ndj33
If anyone's interested, this is a link to the Italian Penal Code.

I posted a reasoned, considered response to the long posts by our moderators. My post was removed. What is going on here? My post about the Panama hat was, ridiculously, allowed to stand on its own. I am taking the matter to Steve Huff. I find it scary that my post was removed. I said nothing untoward. This is fascistic and wildly inappropriate moderator behavior.

I think it was Jumpy and TLC who last week posted some Smiths lyrics and caused me to dig out Strangeways, Here We Come. Listening to it today and I forgot all about Unhappy Birthday, so I thought I would send it out to Perugia since it seems appropriate...


I've come to wish you an Unhappy Birthday
I've come to wish you an Unhappy Birthday
Because you're evil and you lie...

Disclaimer: These are not my words, merely the words to a song. Any similarity to any person and or suspect in this case is strictly a co-inky-dink.

Abby wrote:

I posted a reasoned, considered response to the long posts by our moderators. My post was removed. What is going on here? My post about the Panama hat was, ridiculously, allowed to stand on its own. I am taking the matter to Steve Huff. I find it scary that my post was removed. I said nothing untoward. This is fascistic and wildly inappropriate moderator behavior.

I was going to send you a PM, but have decided instead to answer publicly. Michael asked that the subject be dropped. O8 has been asked to provide us with the so-called libelous post so we can remove it, and has not yet done so. You made a nice post the other night asking that people get back to the topic at hand, which is what many tried to do. Why, last night, did you not follow your own advice after Michael's post reinforcing that idea, instead of coming back to the OT subject that has sown dissension here for two days now?

Steve Huff was the recipient of an anonymous email threatening legal action for "slander." We have dealt with the problem already. He told me in an email that if he were me, he would have lost patience with some of this nonsense ages ago and shut the whole board down. So go ahead if you feel you must take it up with Steve. He'll probably tell you that I have far more patience than most. But think first about what your aim was in posting what you did the first place.

As for the panama hat post, I didn't see it. Would you like to remove it or should I? It seems pretty silly, and you misspelled Nicki's name.

Calling a truce means just that. This is a board about the murder of Meredith Kercher, not about threats of libel. The limits placed on free speech here are minimal. If they are too much for you, then maybe you should not post here.

SB--
I stand by my feeling that it was wildly inappropriate for you to remove my post. I guess you and Michael have decided you deserve the last word. I think the moderator posts were over-the-top and power-mongering and threatening -- that is my opinion. I am allowed to respond -- well, apparently not, since the gatekeepers now simply erase (censor) what they don't like. I did write a post asking people to stop the squabble, you agreed, but then didn't stop. Nicki, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. I apoligize ahead of time for any bad grammar and incorrect spelling, but is this really relevant? My goodness. And I did email Steve Huff. I don't feel I have done anything wrong and I think there has been an abuse of the moderator purpose here. If the board has to be shut down because it has gone off the rails and the moderators are wielding more power than they should, so be it. I feel I have behaved with appropriate respect and decorum.

damian wrote:
Hi DLW. The answer to your question is no. The third knocked off the sentence is automatic for any suspect who asks for the shortened trial, irrespective of whether they collaborate or not. (If any of the lawyers ask for the shortened trial, this will be automatically granted) In any trial the suspects rights are the same; the right to remain silent, the right to lie, the right to make spontaneous declarations to the pm, the right to participate in the trial etc.

When sentencing, the judge will take various things into consideration and then decide on the length of the sentence within the parametres specified by the law. These things are laid out in article 133.
Article 133, 2, 3) "dalla condotta contemporanea o susseguente al reato."
So the behaviour 'during and after the crime' will be taken into consideration. This may include collaborating with the police.

The judge will also way up the 'aggravanti' and the 'attenuanti' circumstances. (If there are more aggravanti than attenuanti, the latter won't count) The attenuanti can in theory, result in a reduction of a third of the sentence. Let's say someone gets 30 years at a shortened trial. This becomes 20 because it's a 'rito'. If there are attenuanti, up to a third could be knocked off the 20. I think this is highly unlikely in the case of RG for two reasons; the aggravanti are serious and will probably out weigh any attenuanti and also because of the fact that he left the country and has reportedly given somewhat ambiguous accounts of events.
The 'attenuanti' are laid out in article 62.
art 62, 6) "...adoperato spontaneamente ed efficacemente per elidere o attenuare le consequenze dannose o pericolose del reato."
Again this could include collaborating but for the reasons given above, I don't think it will be applicable here.

A general point which I've mentioned before; suspects will not be 'penalized' for invoking their right to remain silent.

Thanks damian for this very informative post.

I believe the stress in Amanda's family right now must be immeasurable. I bet Amanda's lawyers have to handle her parents with kid gloves. What if her lawyers can see the brutal reality and her parents are unwilling to hear it? I think as a lawyer one would want to have ALL options on the table not just "she had nothing to do with the murder".

Abby wrote:

I stand by my feeling that it was wildly inappropriate for you to remove my post. I guess you and Michael have decided you deserve the last word. I think the moderator posts were over-the-top and power-mongering and threatening -- that is my opinion. I am allowed to respond -- well, apparently not, since the gatekeepers now simply erase (censor) what they don't like. I did write a post asking people to stop the squabble, you agreed, but then didn't stop. Nicki, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. I apoligize ahead of time for any bad grammar and incorrect spelling, but is this really relevant? My goodness. And I did email Steve Huff. I don't feel I have done anything wrong and I think there has been an abuse of the moderator purpose here. If the board has to be shut down because it has gone off the rails and the moderators are wielding more power than they should, so be it. I feel I have behaved with appropriate respect and decorum.

That's fine, you stand by it. We'll let Steve decide. If he wants to shut the board down, then that is his right. In the meantime, as Moderator, I am asking you to drop this non-issue. It has taken up too much time. When it comes to board conduct, the moderators have the last word. A board cannot function otherwise. Look at the rules closely, Abby. One of them says if you don't like the tone or the way the board is moderated, then you might want to post elsewhere.

This is great, to be in a double bind: on the one hand, we have O8 telling us to watch what we say as we may be sued for libel; on the other hand, we now have Abby complaining that we are inhibiting free speech.

You can't have it both ways.

Ever hear the classic double bind story: It's about the mother who buys her son two shirts for his birthday. He comes to her house for dinner wearing one and she says "What's the matter? You don't like the other one?" This kind of behavior makes people schizophrenic.

Hey Soozie, it's not just you. I was wondering the same thing...

Michael, Skep,

Thanks for getting us back on track. I don't know what got deleted but can only assume it had to do with the matter that is not to be discussed and must have been posted after that rule was set up. It is unfortunate such a rule had to be made but at the same time, allowing the circular argument to continue is disruptive at best. In My Humble Opinion, disruption is the sole intent of that argument anyway. I don't think either Skep or Michael derived any satisfaction from having to come across so heavy. Thanks.

Raffaele's team requests some information but nothing has come to the prsecutor from Amanda and Rudy.

Raffaele's team wants to see the footage from a CCTV camera which points towards the cottage taken on 2 November, the morning after the murder.(This is CCTV footage I don't believe we have heard of before.)

They also want to see the technical analysis of a DNA sample. (Meredith's bra clasp?)

La richiesta di acquisire le immagini riprese la mattina del 2 novembre da una delle telecamere a circuito chiuso del parcheggio antistante l'abitazione dove venne uccisa Meredith Kercher è stata avanzata dalla procura di Perugia dalla difesa di Raffaele Sollecito dopo la notifica dell'avviso di conclusione indagini....

FondazioneItaliani

Raffaele sends a bunch of flowers to Amanda for her birthday.

Leggo Online

Brian wrote:

Raffaele's team wants to see the footage from a CCTV camera which points towards the cottage taken on 2 November, the morning after the murder.(This is CCTV footage I don't believe we have heard of before.)

This may be the "after" footage that Ned Colt mentioned last week.


OT:
The board was down for a bit this morning. I think it is due to the upgrade Michael mentioned. No need to worry.
Skeptical Bystander (Moderator)

[font=Times New Roman]Corrina, it might be easier to read we write shorter sentences until it's sorted out.

I'll try and keep mine under 30 words a line for now. Anyone else apart from me and Corrina having to scroll for miles?[/font]

Soozie "Anyone else apart from me and Corrina having to scroll for miles?"

Me.

It just seems to be affecting page 5.

Only about another 30 posts to get over it.

Brian S. wrote:Raffaele sends a bunch of flowers to Amanda for her birthday.
Leggo Online

[font=Times New Roman]He did? I think that's really weird. Now they've both dumped on each other, it seems a strange thing to do for someone
who claimed he regretted the day he met her. Not to mention the sweet words he said about her, "living only for pleasure".

I wonder whose idea it was, Papa S? That wouldn't make sense if he's trying to create distance between them.
And he certainly hasn't spoken kindly of Knox at any point, as far as I can remember.
Is it possible RS asked his dad first if it was a wise thing to do?

The other thing to consider, is why have none of my exes ever bought me flowers??[/font]

Hey Brian,

Thanks for the information. It might sound silly but, did the article state
what type of flowers he sent?

Anthuria. Rather kitsch, and very phallic.

Brian wrote:

Raffaele sends a bunch of flowers to Amanda for her birthday.

Maybe inside the bouquet he has placed details that will help them match up the inconsistencies in their alibis.

Maybe he has had a change of heart and wants to get back together.

Maybe he was just brought up that way.

Maybe there is a file hidden inside and a note about when and where to meet after she files her way out.

Maybe this is a sign that RS and Dr S realize that they need AK.

"All parts of the anthurium plant, are poisonous. If ingested, may cause mild stomach disorders."

Minotaur wrote:"All parts of the anthurium plant, are poisonous. If ingested, may cause mild stomach disorders."

Maybe they smoked the anthurium plant that night which resulted in Rudy needing the toilet for three songs.

Thanks, Minotaur.

They also apparently have a long vase life, up to 6 weeks. In flower speak
Anthurium means "hospitality".

Jumpy wrote:

Minotaur wrote:"All parts of the anthurium plant, are poisonous.
If ingested, may cause mild stomach disorders."

Maybe they smoked the anthurium plant that night which resulted
in Rudy needing the toilet for three songs.

[font=Times New Roman]Um, no. He needed the toilet when he discovered he had an iPod instead of a Walkman

And O/T: The police have just charged a 33-year-old man with the murder of the French students.

I'm glad their parents didn't have to wait long before the killer was found.[/font]

Brian S. wrote:Raffaele's team requests some information but nothing has come to the prsecutor from Amanda and Rudy.

Raffaele's team wants to see the footage from a CCTV camera which points towards the cottage taken on 2 November, the morning after the murder.(This is CCTV footage I don't believe we have heard of before.)

They also want to see the technical analysis of a DNA sample. (Meredith's bra clasp?)

La richiesta di acquisire le immagini riprese la mattina del 2 novembre da una delle telecamere a circuito chiuso del parcheggio antistante l'abitazione dove venne uccisa Meredith Kercher è stata avanzata dalla procura di Perugia dalla difesa di Raffaele Sollecito dopo la notifica dell'avviso di conclusione indagini....

FondazioneItaliani

Cheers Brian. According to this article, the CCTV footage that RS's team wants to see is not part of the file. They believe it could be useful. It reminds me of the beginning of the investigation back in November, when they were asking to see CCTV footage from various cameras which they thought could have perhaps helped their cause.

Jumpy wrote:

Minotaur wrote:"All parts of the anthurium plant, are poisonous. If ingested, may cause mild stomach disorders."

Maybe they smoked the anthurium plant that night which resulted in Rudy needing the toilet for three songs.

Good point, Jumpy. Does it also mention memory loss as a side effect, Minotaur?

Corrine wrote:

They also apparently have a long vase life, up to 6 weeks. In flower speak
Anthurium means "hospitality".

They are also called "flamingo flowers," because of the way they look and their color.

Damian wrote:

According to this article, the CCTV footage that RS's team wants to see is not part of the file. They believe it could be useful. It reminds me of the beginning of the investigation back in November, when they were asking to see CCTV footage from various cameras which they thought could have perhaps helped their cause.

Were they required to wait until Mignini filed and they reviewed the contents, or is this something they could have requested at any time?

I think they are hoping to see footage of AK and RS arriving c.11.15 carrying a mop and bucket.

Not much more detail, but here's a fast and dirty translation of the article Brian referred to above:

http://www.fondazioneitaliani.it/index.php/en/Delitto-Perugia-le-richiesta-della-difesa-di-Sollecito.html

HEADLINE: Perugia Crime, Sollecito's defence lawyers' request

SUBTITLE: Crime in Perugia. All the pieces

July 9, 2008 - Raffaele Sollecito's defence lawyers requested to obtain the images taken on the morning of November 2 by the closed circuit television cameras of a carpark in front of the house where Meredith Kercher was killed. The request was made to the Prosecutors' office of Perugia following the notification of the investigation's conclusion. The deadline for submitting defence reports or requests for carrying out new investigative procedures expired today at 2 p.m. Sollecito's defence team - lawyers Luca Maori, Giulia Bongiorno and Marco Brusco - have asked in particular to obtain the video from the camera facing the entrance to Via della Pergola. They argue that these are images which are not in the final investigative documentation and which would be useful to clarify Sollecito's and Amanda Knox's movements on the morning when Meredith Kercher's corpse was discovered. The lawyers for the young Pugliese have also requested some technical data concerning the DNA analysis in order to verify the results of the tests carried out by the defence consultants. No requests [claims] have been made by the defence teams of Knox and Rudy Guede. In the coming days prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi will formalise and present to the GIP their conclusions, requesting in all likelihood the trial of the three suspects. (Ansa)

If Amanda had been hit by the police, would this have been the time to file something
or will that come later? Not that I personally believe that story but now that they haven't
let her have a birthday cake, well, I'm starting to think this is just cruel and unusual
treatment. AND her honey sends her poisonous phallic-shaped flowers on top of
everything.

[font=Times New Roman]Corrina, Brian, I'm copying and pasting 'scrolling' posts straight into wordpad where they're easily readable.[/font]

OTOTOTOTOT:

THE WIDE SCREEN is caused when a single "unwrapable" element is incorporated into a message, like a real-sized photo (instead of a thumbnail) or a REALLY LONG URL, like maybe the one in Pandora's post above (no complaints, Pandora!)

This is a situation where "TinyURL's" are useful, or using the URL Label function above, which has this syntax:
[ url = http://www.tactic.be ] Freddies site[ /url ]
((with no spaces))

OT OT OT OT OT OT

Can't help it...

Pandora! See what you've opened up here...

bwa ha ha ha

okay, sorry. We will now resume your regularly scheduled de-programming...

[font=Times New Roman]Kermit, even with no link, no url, sentences of more than 30 words need to be scrolled to view.[/font]

soozie UK wrote:[font=Times New Roman]Kermit, even with no link, no url, sentences of more than 30 words need to be scrolled to view.[/font]

Hi Soozie ... I'm no expert on the technology in this forum, and it's not important, but if and when Pandora sees this, if she were to edit her post, removing or turning the URL into a TinyURL, I'm sure the width of all posts would return to "standard" size.

I would edit Pandora's post myself but the edit and all other such buttons have disappeared. I hope this is a temporary problem related to the upgrade.

About the cctv footage. The lawyers have similar investigative powers to the pm. I think it would be a surprise if RS's team had not seen the footage they have asked for since this could be risky for them. Lawyers don't tend to ask 'questions' if they don't have a pretty good idea what the 'answer' will be. The pm has 20 days to do what has been requested of him.

Corrina. In this 20 day period the lawyers can only speak to the pm and so I don't think they would have brought up any issues they may have with the interrogation.

I had that the other day Soozie

I solved it by running up and down the street

Complaints against alleged illegal police behaviour are filed according to the same procedures provided for an alleged violation of the Penal Law.

Complaints can be filed directly at the Public Prosecutor's Office or at any investigating police office.

Complaints can be filed directly at the Public Prosecutor's Office or at any investigating police office.

Which means not filed online or in a newspaper.

damian

Many thanks for the clarification on the shortened trial. So the shortened trial is available to anyone with 1/3 off. So if Rudy is charged with voluntary homicide he would get 30 years for that. The alleviating factors could come into play if Rudy provides useful info that helps lead to the conviction of other (if any) accomplices. I imagine he’ll also try to beat the charge altogether. So it would seem that the 30 yrs. would be knocked down to 20 yrs if he goes for the abbreviated trial, and the alleviating factors could theoretically knock a few more yrs off. However if the prosecutors also press charges for aggravated sexual assault, which by the evidence seems appropriate, that would give the prosecutors even more leverage over Rudy. This is still up in the air now. In that case Rudy may ask for a conditioned abbreviated trial, and try to mitigate the sexual assault charges based on the coroners report.

No birthday cake for Amanda. I wonder if that was from her parents or many admirers. Prison authorities can’t take any chances that somebody might try to hide a metal file in the cake. It’s the oldest trick in the book.

Message to Raf.. Sending flowers to Amanda, even if they were poisonous, seems like a nice gesture. You might also consider sending a candygram or something along those lines to Rudy. You know how he gets when he feels left out.

DLW wrote:No birthday cake for Amanda. I wonder if that was from her parents or many admirers. Prison authorities can’t take any chances that somebody might try to hide a metal file in the cake. It’s the oldest trick in the book.

They'd probably put in a butter knife instead.

A defendant may ask, for a decision to be pronounced on the basis of the evidence collected during the preliminary phase.

If the judge considers it possible to adjudicate on the basis of the said evidence, he/she pronounces the judgement. Where a sentence is pronounced, the penalty is reduced by one-third.


_________

Hi Damian,

I am still not quite sure if you are entrely correct on the abbreviato.
I keep seeing, from different sources, that it is a request, and it may then, if I understand it correctly, also be denied.


The advantages for the defendants are that they are granted a reduction of up to one-third of the sentence, they do not have to pay court costs and they are not subjected to any security measures.


___________________________________________________________________________________________

Why could it be denied?

For various reasons, like in this case, where the judge may not be happy that the relationship of one defendant with regards to the others, through absence of one defendant will see the truth not being brought out, if one opts out and then certain motions cannot be used in court that are needed in able to see that the other defendants are tried properly.

Guede may be needed fully in court, and his request if he makes one could then be denied. I think, I do not know exactly.

But based on what I'm making of these documents I'm not just taking words from someone who says it is so without any back-up like concrete evidence to prove that it is like that.

Otherwise that too is only hearsay as regards matters of law. I trust you, and your good information but where do you get your facts from?

Again this is what is written: A defendant may ask, for a decision to be pronounced on the basis of the evidence collected during the preliminary phase.
If the judge considers it possible to adjudicate on the basis of the said evidence, he/she pronounces the judgement. Where a sentence is pronounced, the penalty is reduced by one-third.


The word is IF, if the judge finds




Are you sure 100% that this request is always granted?

I have an extensive report here:

European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control, affiliated with the United Nations from the year 2000 as regards Italian laws and procedures, et cetera,

and it contains info' on not only the codice penale but the rest too: The Italian Criminal Procedure Code is divided into eleven books.


The first book is dedicated to the judge, the defendant, the public prosecutor, the judicial police, the civilly liable persons, the injured party, the civil parties and the defence counsel.

The second book regulates the acts of the trial and contains the most important provisions regarding the procedural terms and nullity or invalidity of acts.

The third book regulates the investigation and collection of evidence.

The fourth book regulates precautionary measures directed against the person or property.

The fifth book deals with pre-trial investigations and the preliminary hearing, while the sixth book regulates special procedures, i.e. the alternative procedures aimed at shortening or expediting the court hearings under special circumstances. These include cases for which it is easy to provide evidence or when the defendant asks for a lighter sentence (the alternative judgements: see above).

The seventh book regulates the trial: the preliminary phase, the trial hearing, and the decision, including the sentence.

The eighth book regulates the proceedings before the lower court (now: a single-judge court), while the ninth book provides the norms for the appeals.

The tenth book regulates the enforcement/execution of the sentence and the eleventh book deals with the judicial relationships with foreign authorities. The latter contains the provisions relating to extradition, international rogatory letters and the effects of foreign sentences.


It seems to me that the request is not always granted. I cannot say I am sure but until someone, maybe you, can give concrete evidence through proof, like documentation clearly stating that it is always granted, I go more on this report and others where it says the court, meaning judge, decides, if he/she has to decide then it means it can be refused, otherwise there would be no decision, to make.


Regards

Terry

OT
The police in London have arrested a new suspect in the recent multiple stabbing death of two students. The first suspect a 21 yr old was previously released ( apparently the police couldn‘t force him to confess). This new arrest is a 33 yr old man, was unemployed, and was treated at a hospital for burns. He voluntarily confessed, and indeed sounds like a nut case.

ps to Sparrow: The butter knife didn’t work. The Sollecito’s are now trying new inventive ways to try and spring Raf.

Soozie UK,

"He did? I think that's really weird. Now they've both dumped on each other, it seems a strange thing to do for someone
who claimed he regretted the day he met her. Not to mention the sweet words he said about her, "living only for pleasure".

Birds of the same feather, flock together. These two persons will be spending a lot of time behind bars. They sealed their fates sometime back when they chose to commit harm against another person. The reason for the flowers are twofold IMHO. First, if it is true that Raffaele Sollecito sent them, then, it is also true that they were either sent by the Sollecito family or by a representative of their family. The flowers represent a truce of some sort between the two camps. It is based on the recognition from the evidence that they have to fight together.

Secondly, if the flowers were indeed sent, whether or not Raffaele Sollecito agreed to send them, it is again an attempt by the two of them, IMHO, to go down together, that if they remain steadfast and silent, perhaps they will improve their odds.

Soozie UK,

"He did? I think that's really weird. Now they've both dumped on each other, it seems a strange thing to do for someone
who claimed he regretted the day he met her. Not to mention the sweet words he said about her, "living only for pleasure".

_____

I think Beep it is another part of the Soll strategy, they now probably think it was bad that Raffaelle Sollecito distanced himself from Amanda Knox, because later on it became obvious that he has no story at all.
Even if they cannot use Knox to leave the channel open, seems then to be what they would attempt to be doing.


I think the flowers are not meant sincerely, they are yet another tool, they are out for themselves.

There are no limits to the lengths some individuals will go, to achieve certain things, negative things, they show it through their absolute lack of taste, like a cooker blogstress DJ, who after all of what the Sollecito mob did with most likely being involved in having Meredith's corpse shown on Telenorba TV still quotes Telenorba TV, said individualk must have nothing better to do!

I am continually amazed how ugly in the mind some people are capable of being.

If that person had any class at all, then repeating things from Telenorba - after the total disregard towards the sanctity of death they demonstrated, by showing Meredith dead there on the floor with a gaping cut open throat and blood on her - would be the last thing any self-respecting person would do.
Yet still that person claims to be concerned about Meredith, whilst denying every single scrap of evidence against those suspects, even the fact that these suspects definitely look dodgy and that it is nobody elses fault but their own, mainly having come about through their own lies.

TLC wrote:
I think the flowers are not meant sincerely, they are yet another tool, they are out for themselves.

Hello TLC and Community,

I tend to think the same as you, Terry. Sending flowers, these flowers, to Amanda on her birthday is a departure from how things seem to have gone between AK and RS since incarceration. Not to mention that Papa and the Attorneys probably would have to approve and/or fund any gifts sent to Amanda.

That flowers were sent is significant. I have been wondering what this signifies, also. The choice of an Anthurium arrangement is really intriguing.

Assuming that the reports are correct, and pink and white Anthuriums were sent to AK, from RS, then what was the reasoning for chosing Anthuriums? Perhaps there is a simple answer, such as some custom or availability, or maybe AK or RS favours Anthuriums or that flower has some meaning for the two of them. There certainly are a lot of choices amongst potential floral arrangments, so 'why Anthurium?'

To send flowers is an opportunity to also send a message to AK. There wasn't much of a message on the card "(Happy Birthday"). If the flowers themselves had more to say, what message could pink and white Anthuriums send?

Different species of Anthurium have different appearances - but similarities. Look at the photos of deep pink and white Anthuriums at the tinyurl:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6cyc4v

As Minotaur pointed out, they are certainly phallic - there's the phallus and the heart. That is certainly provocative.

One could see a phallus emerging from the heart, or piercing the heart.

Just a "pierced heart", or heart with a stake it it, is another interpretation.

Here is a really "outer limits" interpretation: cannabis joint piercing, or emerging from, the heart - but that seems to me as far-fetched as memory loss from cannabis to the extreme of not knowing whether one was home or somewhere else. Won't even consider that one.

This floral birthday gift is timed right after AK's diaries made international media waves - perhaps the list of her lovers was very humiliating to RS and family, and the Anthurium choice was a Trojan Horse gift. On the surface, it seems thoughtful, but looking for other messages, there are a few choices. Heart with a stake, heart with a phallus, heart with a phallus stake? A heart pierced by another's infidelity? Was any insult intended, in the aftermath of the diary excerpt publication? Sending a "double-edged sword" message, could depend upon how devious and subtle the sender.

Or, on the other hand, maybe RS was telling AK that he is still available for her, body and heart.

Why Anthuriums and not Lilies, Roses, Carnations, or others? Maybe it was "just flowers", I don't know , I'm
Just Wondering

JW wrote:

Why Anthuriums and not Lilies, Roses, Carnations, or others? Maybe it was "just flowers", I don't know , I'm
Just Wondering

There are two ways of looking at it from a press point of view: it was either a private gesture that the ever ravenous press picked up as the latest installment in an unfolding story, or it was a gesture intended to pique the curiosity of the press and hence of the people. It is a meaningful gesture, but unfortunately it is hard to guess what it means in this context.

Flowers can mean:
I love you
I miss you
I'm sorry
Don't forget me
No hard feelings
Look what a great guy I am
Etc.

TLC wrote:Soozie UK,

"He did? I think that's really weird. Now they've both dumped on each other, it seems a strange thing to do for someone
who claimed he regretted the day he met her. Not to mention the sweet words he said about her, "living only for pleasure".

_____

I think Beep it is another part of the Soll strategy, they now probably think it was bad that Raffaelle Sollecito distanced himself from Amanda Knox, because later on it became obvious that he has no story at all.
Even if they cannot use Knox to leave the channel open, seems then to be what they would attempt to be doing.


I think the flowers are not meant sincerely, they are yet another tool, they are out for themselves.

There are no limits to the lengths some individuals will go, to achieve certain things, negative things, they show it through their absolute lack of taste, like a cooker blogstress DJ, who after all of what the Sollecito mob did with most likely being involved in having Meredith's corpse shown on Telenorba TV still quotes Telenorba TV, said individualk must have nothing better to do!

I am continually amazed how ugly in the mind some people are capable of being.

If that person had any class at all, then repeating things from Telenorba - after the total disregard towards the sanctity of death they demonstrated, by showing Meredith dead there on the floor with a gaping cut open throat and blood on her - would be the last thing any self-respecting person would do.
Yet still that person claims to be concerned about Meredith, whilst denying every single scrap of evidence against those suspects, even the fact that these suspects definitely look dodgy and that it is nobody elses fault but their own, mainly having come about through their own lies.

I'm not so sure that RS was the one who sent the flowers. Why would he do this, after he made sure to distance himself from her? It doesn't make any sense.

nicki wrote:I'm not so sure that RS was the one who sent the flowers. Why would he do this, after he made sure to distance himself from her? It doesn't make any sense.

[font=Times New Roman]I know. I said the same thing. Maybe he wanted to remind her: "I'm here, and I'm watching you. Don't snitch on me!", or is that just too cynical?
Or maybe he wanted to guilt her out, so that if she HAD have been planning to incriminate him, she'd feel bad about. Nah, I don't think she would somehow, but maybe he though it was worth a try?[/font]

damian wrote:About the cctv footage. The lawyers have similar investigative powers to the pm. I think it would be a surprise if RS's team had not seen the footage they have asked for since this could be risky for them. Lawyers don't tend to ask 'questions' if they don't have a pretty good idea what the 'answer' will be. The pm has 20 days to do what has been requested of him.

Damian,

After reading several accounts of this request, I'm not so sure they have seen it. It's obviously in addition to some CCTV footage which they have already acquired as part of the documentation.

I legali del giovane pugliese vogliono acquisire i filmati di una telecamera che potrebbe aver ripreso la zona di Via della Pergola la mattina del ritrovamento del cadavere....

This from Tam Tam
reads very much like could have filmed, as in it's uncertain what has been captured.




La difesa di Raffaele Sollecito ha avanzato la richiesta di acquisizione delle immagini registrate il 2 novembre scorso dalle telecamere del parcheggio di fronte via della Pergola. Secondo gli avvocati i filmati potrebbero essere utili per ricostruire i movimenti di Raffaele e Amanda

La Nazione also seems to be saying "could".

CCTV is obviously playing a part in reconstructing this story and I don't see any reason for the prosecution not to include this footage in this package if it contained anything relevent to the case. If Raffaele and Amanda are obvious in the footage I'm sure the police would have released it as part of the case. Raffaele and Amanda arriving with the mop at 11:30 is hardly going to be surprising to anyone. Is it so dangerous? If Raffaele and Amanda were seen at 8:30 I'm sure it would already form part of the prosecution case.

jw wrote:Different species of Anthurium have different appearances - but similarities. Look at the photos of deep pink and white Anthuriums at the tinyurl:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6cyc4v

As Minotaur pointed out, they are certainly phallic - there's the phallus and the heart. That is certainly provocative.

One could see a phallus emerging from the heart, or piercing the heart.

Just a "pierced heart", or heart with a stake it it, is another interpretation.

Here is a really "outer limits" interpretation: cannabis joint piercing, or emerging from, the heart - but that seems to me as far-fetched as memory loss from cannabis to the extreme of not knowing whether one was home or somewhere else. Won't even consider that one.

This floral birthday gift is timed right after AK's diaries made international media waves - perhaps the list of her lovers was very humiliating to RS and family, and the Anthurium choice was a Trojan Horse gift. On the surface, it seems thoughtful, but looking for other messages, there are a few choices. Heart with a stake, heart with a phallus, heart with a phallus stake? A heart pierced by another's infidelity? Was any insult intended, in the aftermath of the diary excerpt publication? Sending a "double-edged sword" message, could depend upon how devious and subtle the sender.

Or, on the other hand, maybe RS was telling AK that he is still available for her, body and heart.

Why Anthuriums and not Lilies, Roses, Carnations, or others? Maybe it was "just flowers", I don't know , I'm
Just Wondering

Nice post jw. In my opinion anthuriums can't be considered "just flowers." And the traditional meaning "hospitality" makes no sense, as no one is visiting anyone or hosting anyone in this case. Unless there wasn't much choice, or the person given the task of choosing had his own ideas, I would guess the anthuriums were meant to convey a specific message.

What about this? What if it was, as some suggest, Raffaele's team that released Amanda's diaries to the press? This doesn't mean no one else did this also. But let's just consider that Raffaele's team did this to discredit Amanda. There is a logic to them doing this if they plan to stick to his story that he didn't know where she was for part of the evening, leaving the possibility that she was involved in MK's death without him. He was at home, and she was gone. Now her diaries show her personality in a negative light. This has nothing to do with him.

But in releasing her diaries, they run the risk her team will figure it out, realize he's putting her in jeapordy and retaliate. So they need to show a little charm to make sure Amanda doesn't want to turn on Raffaele. How does one do that? Daisies? They're just flowers. Roses? Is she an old lady? What would appeal to Amanda, a girl who only lives "for pleasure," a girl who thrives on the idea of her own desirability, and one who's locked up in prison? A reminder perhaps? A reminder of what they shared. A reminder of what she can't have while in prison, of what she wants, of what he gave her. Yes, it's totally a phallic message to Amanda. I would think it's not Raffaele's idea, but one of someone on his team with a much more sophisticated mind. It's a silent, visual message meant to make her think and feel a certain way, without knowing she's being manipulated.

Hey, it's just an idea. But think about the strategy to sabotage on one hand and charm on the other. It's one that can certainly win, especially against a young, needy, vulnerable woman (girl - I see her as a girl).

skeptical bystander wrote:It is a meaningful gesture, but unfortunately it is hard to guess what it means in this context.

Hi Skep,

It is difficult, as with most everything in this case, we don't have very much information to go on, let alone know whether many reports are true. If the birthday Anthuriums were sent AK, I still think that Anthuriums were not a choice without meaning. The most straightforward guess would simply be that they were chosen for their heart-shaped leaves. That alone would be interesting enough.

Maybe the evidence review has made an alliance between AK and RS look like a good idea - to the attorneys if not to the famililes. As you said, who knows?

Just Wondering

Sparrow wrote: What would appeal to Amanda, a girl who only lives "for pleasure," a girl who thrives on the idea of her own desirability, and one who's locked up in prison? A reminder perhaps? A reminder of what they shared. I reminder of what she can't have while in prison, of what she wants, of what he gave her. Yes, it's totally a phallic message to Amanda. I would think it's not Raffaele's idea, but one of someone on his team with a much more sophisticated mind. It's a silent, visual message meant to make her think and feel a certain way, without knowing she's being manipulated.

Hey, it's just an idea. But think about the strategy to sabotage on one hand and charm on the other. It's one that can certainly win, especially against a young, needy, vulnerable woman (girl - I see her as a girl).

Brilliant, Sparrow - that is the direction that I was wandering towards, thank you for getting there

I agree that the brains behind the Anthurium would be along the lines of Papa and his legal team. Very sophisticated thinking, (and perhaps very Italian). Although Anthuriums could be a simple "hearts" choice - given the complexity of this case, I doubt that this was a simple gesture and your analysis is a good fit.

jw

jw wrote:Maybe the evidence review has made an alliance between AK and RS look like a good idea - to the attorneys if not to the famililes. As you said, who knows?

Just Wondering

You can bet it has.

In every story about the request for the morning CCTV footage, Raffaele's team have said they want it because it may help Raffaele AND Amanda.

Maybe, they're trying to send out a message?

If I were a gambler, I could say that a description of the events on Nov 1 could come down to their word against Rudy's and the Albanian's.

But that still doesn't help them to explain away the cleanup.

Of course,

We still don't know the position in Amanda's camp now that their side has seen the evidence. It's worth noting that no defensive memo or any other request was forthcoming from her team.

Something else I have noticed over the last two or three weeks. It seems to have gone very quiet on the Western Front.

Could Amanda walk away from Raffaele and his flowers?

And it's not just on this board.

The significance of the flowers is also puzzling the Italian press.

And on the subject of swimming caps and an Albanian story about a funny hat which he couldn't really describe.

Lest we forget:

Prosecution sources said Rudy Hermann Guede's confession was a ''nail in the coffin'' in the case and were delighted with his admission.

During six hours of questioning, the 20-year-old said Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were "at the house".

He said: "When I came out of the bathroom I saw a male figure. I put my hand on his shoulder and he had a knife in his hand.

"I also heard Amanda Knox. She was at the door - I saw her there. The two girls hated each other.

"It was a row over money that sparked it off. Meredith accused Amanda of stealing £196 from her drawer."

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said: "All I will say is that we were very pleased with what Guede had to say.

"It was very, very useful to the investigation and we will be putting it all in the file which we will present later this Spring."

Valter Biscotti, Guede's lawyer, said: "We were delighted with how it went. Guede again stressed his complete non-involvement in the murder."...



Sky News

JW wrote:

Why Anthuriums and not Lilies, Roses, Carnations, or others? Maybe it was "just flowers", I don't know , I'm
Just Wondering

This is really a long shot,but all day I've been thinking that Anthuriums are hothouse flowers, like the band of the same name. They have a song called This Is It (This Is Your Soul), and in trying to find the lyrics I found another of their songs called Forever More (lyrics below):

I'm sitting on my own by the fire again
and the healing is turned on
I've been just out drinking and I feel my mind is gone
and the flames are dancing like a ballerina
reminding me of you
and the night that we fell through the mist
and we made one out of two yeah
and I think I'm going to go out and buy a diamond
and I think I'm going to dress you up in white
forever more forever more forever more forever more

I like a drink that takes some time to settle
it's worth the wait and it tastes just like a dream
and my soul is full of gold and precious metals
and my heart is singing a song thats never been
and I think I'm going to go out and buy a diamond
and I think I'm going to dress you up in white
forever more forever more forever more forever more
and the first night that we made love was so wrong
and the night that we got drunk to write this song
and the friends we couldn't tell what's going on
took us to a place where we belong, where love is strong
love be strong, love grows strong ah
forever more forever more forever more forever more

Brian S. wrote:And on the subject of swimming caps and an Albanian story about a funny hat which he couldn't really describe.

Lest we forget:

Prosecution sources said Rudy Hermann Guede's confession was a ''nail in the coffin'' in the case and were delighted with his admission.


"It was very, very useful to the investigation and we will be putting it all in the file which we will present later this Spring."

Valter Biscotti, Guede's lawyer, said: "We were delighted with how it went. Guede again stressed his complete non-involvement in the murder."[/b]...

But still no change in the story we know. Even the article Damian linked earlier mentions Rudy's same story that he had an appointment with MK. Is he sticking to that, or has he changed his story and it simply hasn't come out yet?

I think the flowers are the beginning of a campaign to make him and/or her appear more human. As if they could not commit an attrocious murder.

A new phase.

Not sure what I believe about who sent them. And I mean from his family or from hers. Not sure about that yet.

Judge Matteini:

The homicide of Meredith was certainly not an impulsive act. On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering.
Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who --for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints-- was subject to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person.
In such a situation the danger of repetition of the crime is certainly very high and can't be considered to have diminished due to the mere passage of time, during which -- as a reminder -- you have never shown any sign of remorse or reconsideration of your life.
Even the behaviors you mention in your motion requesting release, which are presented as being in your favor, could be read differently in the opinion of this judge [Matteini]:
your conduct after the murder is symptomatic of a personality which, considering your young age, provokes no small measure of dismay and apprehension, considering how extremely easy it was for you to control your states of mind.
You, together with Raffaele, were able to pretend to have called 112 faced with the accidental arrival of the Police, in order to build yourselves an 'alibi'. This was cold and rational behavior, not at all consistent with the state of stress you say you were feeling because you had found this strange situation at home.
Your stress is not really credible if, as you say, on the same morning of November 2, you came back home after having spent the night with Sollecito and, although you were aware of the situation, took a shower, washed your hair, changed your clothes and went back to his house and then -- only after many hours -- sounded the alarm with this 'famous' call to 112.

Perugia-Shock



Is Amanda between a rock and a hardplace?

Sparrow wrote:I would think it's not Raffaele's idea, but one of someone on his team with a much more sophisticated mind.
It's a silent, visual message meant to make her think and feel a certain way, without knowing she's being manipulated.

[font=Times New Roman]Sparrow, I like it. It's kind of sinister too, which fits in with certain people trying to have certain people 'removed' from the investigation.
I'd say she was lucky to get flowers and not a horse's head [/font]

jw wrote:I agree that the brains behind the Anthurium would be along the lines of Papa and his legal team. Very sophisticated thinking, (and perhaps very Italian).
jw

Hmm... Um-hmmm... No comment.

Brian S. wrote:In every story about the request for the morning CCTV footage, Raffaele's team have said they want it because it may help Raffaele AND Amanda.

Maybe, they're trying to send out a message?

If I were a gambler, I could say that a description of the events on Nov 1 could come down to their word against Rudy's and the Albanian's.

But that still doesn't help them to explain away the cleanup.

Well, there apparently has been a change of tack, then? AK and RS, together again. I have noticed some poster on another blog speaking of "the fight for Amanda and Raffaele" and have wondered about the Sollecito's perspective. Thanks, Brian.

I've noticed how quiet the Western Front has been, also. Maybe some regrouping going on in light of the immense evidence file, including waiting for some agreements on collaborative strategies to come from AK and RS attorneys, if they are already coordinating responses. AK can only benefit, as Papa Sol can probably afford the best experts to attack the evidence.

Amanda was recently writing about her UW boyfriend in her diary excerpt. Maybe the "RS heart AK" bouquet will win her back.

jw

Brian S. wrote:Of course,

We still don't know the position in Amanda's camp now that their side has seen the evidence. It's worth noting that no defensive memo or any other request was forthcoming from her team.

Something else I have noticed over the last two or three weeks. It seems to have gone very quiet on the Western Front.

Could Amanda walk away from Raffaele and his flowers?

If Raffaele dealt the actual final stab that ended Meredith's life, I feel her lawyers should do everything in their power to get Amanda the best deal and yes she should walk away. She could tell the truth and say their prank or whatever it was did not involve murdering Meredith. Raffaele went too far and her DNA is on the handle because she was the one that cleaned the knife. I still to this day DO NOT believe murder was the plan for that evening. Some total weirdness went down that night and someone needs to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I am just curious, is it legally okay for Amanda's and Raffaele's defense teams to meet and come up with ONE story?

soozie UK wrote:[font=Times New Roman]It's kind of sinister too, which fits in with certain people trying to have certain people 'removed' from the investigation.
I'd say she was lucky to get flowers and not a horse's head [/font]

Sinister, cynical, and very experienced. Treating her like a little thing.

Sparrow wrote:But still no change in the story we know. Even the article Damian linked earlier mentions Rudy's same story that he had an appointment with MK. Is he sticking to that, or has he changed his story and it simply hasn't come out yet?

I'm only painting pictures of possibilities, Sparrow.

Who knows?

Two things to bear in mind though.

None of the incorrections about the Albanians evidence which came in the January leak were ever corrected by the investigators.

Mignini sat on the transcript of Rudy's March 26th statement and wouldn't release it until it came out with the other 10,000 pages despite repeated requests from Raffaele's lawyers to see it.

Who knows what it contains?

What did he add on May 14?

Well, Raffaele's and Amanda's teams do know now.

skeptical bystander wrote:JW wrote:

This is really a long shot,but all day I've been thinking that Anthuriums are hothouse flowers, like the band of the same name. They have a song called This Is It (This Is Your Soul), and in trying to find the lyrics I found another of their songs called Forever More

Yeah, that one works for their "intense" time together. I'll have to swing by youtube and check it out.

What a PR campaign, the young lovers rent asunder by false accusations, only needing to prevail in court in order to be together again, forevermore.

(If I wasn't cynical before this case, I am now).

jw

Sparrow wrote:

soozie UK wrote:[font=Times New Roman]It's kind of sinister too, which fits in with certain people trying to have certain people 'removed' from the investigation.
I'd say she was lucky to get flowers and not a horse's head [/font]

Sinister, cynical, and very experienced. Treating her like a little thing.

It would have that same arrogant aura about it as RS carrying a knife to his police interviews and his later remark to Papa about "those stupid policemen" not finding the knife.

Soozie, your "horse's head" remark makes me wonder whether Rudy will get any gifts or messages.

jw

nicki wrote: I'm glad I live in a place where suspects are held right away, and if they're found innocent, they're out in a couple of weeks

Hey Nicki. Yes, but this only works well when everyone has access to good legal representation, like in Italy. In the States this would be hazardous. Even as it is now, if you don't have a good lawyer who pays attention to your case, you're screwed.

Brian S. wrote:And it's not just on this board.

The significance of the flowers is also puzzling the Italian press.

Hey Brian. Do you have links?

Sparrow wrote:

Brian S. wrote:And it's not just on this board.

The significance of the flowers is also puzzling the Italian press.

Hey Brian. Do you have links?

Just a quick one Sparrow before I turn in.

I've seen comments in quite a few stories about the flowers.

I think the press were under the same impression as ourselves that the big romance was over.

Meredith;Raffaele dona mazzo di fiori ad Amanda per il compleanno

Perugia, 9 lug. (Apcom) - Ritorno di fiamma tra i due ex fidanzatini accusati dall'omicidio di Meredith Kercher? La domanda è circolata per tutta la giornata di oggi dopo che si è appreso che Raffaele Sollecito dal carcere di Terni ha inviato un mazzo di fiori ad Amanda che oggi ha compiuto in carcere 21 anni.....

LA7

and with that I bid you all goodnight.

Thanks, Brian. For those in doubt, the article Brian referenced above says the card with the flowers said, "Happy Birthday, Raffaele."

Brian S. wrote:

jw wrote:Maybe the evidence review has made an alliance between AK and RS look like a good idea - to the attorneys if not to the famililes. As you said, who knows?

Just Wondering

You can bet it has.

In every story about the request for the morning CCTV footage, Raffaele's team have said they want it because it may help Raffaele AND Amanda.

Maybe, they're trying to send out a message?

If I were a gambler, I could say that a description of the events on Nov 1 could come down to their word against Rudy's and the Albanian's.

You might be right to some extent. But I have little doubt the defense will bring in expert witnesses who will tell the court that this type of crime scene is associated with a single assailant, just as the recent crime scene in London was the type associated with someone suffering from severe mental illness.

Brian S. wrote:But that still doesn't help them to explain away the cleanup.

The prosecution can only prove a cleanup with physical evidence. Are you sure the physical evidence exists?

Charlie wrote:

You might be right to some extent. But I have little doubt the defense will bring in expert witnesses who will tell the court that this type of crime scene is associated with a single assailant, just as the recent crime scene in London was the type associated with someone suffering from severe mental illness.

I agree with your first part -- that the defense will do its job and try to associate this type of crime with a single assailant. But I think the problem is that we haven't yet seen proof that Rudy is that guy (ie, the mental case who would do that alone). It will be interesting to see.

Brian S. wrote:
But that still doesn't help them to explain away the cleanup.

Charlie wrote:
The prosecution can only prove a cleanup with physical evidence. Are you sure the physical evidence exists?

This too will be key. And there is no way that the lone wolf did the clean up and bumped into the witness at 10:30 pm. The bleach receipts are highly problematic for RS and AK, as is the mop and a number of other items--all of this will be seen or not in due time. I think we can all agree that this will be critical.

Jumpy wrote:I think the flowers are the beginning of a campaign to make him and/or her appear more human

Here in Hawaii, Anthuriums grow wild - something to be trammeled underfoot on the way to someplace else.

skeptical bystander wrote:Charlie wrote:

You might be right to some extent. But I have little doubt the defense will bring in expert witnesses who will tell the court that this type of crime scene is associated with a single assailant, just as the recent crime scene in London was the type associated with someone suffering from severe mental illness.

I agree with your first part -- that the defense will do its job and try to associate this type of crime with a single assailant. But I think the problem is that we haven't yet seen proof that Rudy is that guy (ie, the mental case who would do that alone). It will be interesting to see.

I don't mean to say that the Perugia crime scene points to the same kind of offender as the one in London. They are vastly different. The guy in London is probably a schizophrenic, one of those people who can't function at all and has been living in a fog of anger and confusion that culminated in this horrendous double murder. The giveaway is the number of stab wounds inflicted after the victims were already dead. John Douglas and Robert Ressler talk about those kinds of murders in their books about criminal profiling. Guede is nothing like that. BUT, I think most experts would say that the Meredith Kercher crime scene maps to a single perpetrator, albeit of a different personality type than the one in London. In fact, one such individual was interviewed in the British Ch. 4 program.

Brian S. wrote:
But that still doesn't help them to explain away the cleanup.

skeptical bystander wrote:Charlie wrote:

The prosecution can only prove a cleanup with physical evidence. Are you sure the physical evidence exists?

This too will be key. And there is no way that the lone wolf did the clean up and bumped into the witness at 10:30 pm. The bleach receipts are highly problematic for RS and AK, as is the mop and a number of other items--all of this will be seen or not in due time. I think we can all agree that this will be critical.

It will be critical if what the authorities have described is what really emerges from this immense volume of material they have collected. Chris Mellas says the bleach receipts are bogus. We'll see.

charlie last night the met arrested another 2 people in relation to the killing of the french students. one is a woman. you have applied prejudice in your reasoning. i am sure you had previous case histories to inform your prejudice just as the perugia police did when they found persons at the scene of a murder. such persons are to be considered suspects according to the prejudice that arises from previous case histories of murder investigations by police.
killers often stand in the crowd to watch the police at the scene of a discovered killing. bundy is a famous example. i am sure you know this.

you have not answered my question regarding the lack of bloodied/partially bloodied foot prints leading out of Merediths room. where are they? you have not answered but it is obvious to see in the photos that the tiles had been cleaned after the murder and the blood of the nike prints was diffused because of the floor or shoes being wet with a liquid other than blood.

you cannot pick and choose and expect to be taken seriously.

.

These lines are translated from today's La Nazione Umbria.

" 'Happy Birthday, let's hope that justice prevails soon.' The birthday card for Amanda Knox was accompanied by a bunch of flowers, anthurium, and was taken to the cell by a member of the penetentiary police.
They were sent by her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito..."

"For a few weeks now, the two have been writing letters to each other. 'They have nothing to do in prison and considering that they shared a love story and that they both claim to be innocent, they write in general about their days', said Luca Maori, 'Raffaele chose the flowers, through interflora...nine anthurium, like the date of Knox's birthday.'

In the same article from La Nazione Umbria. Again, my translation.

"The request for the acquisition of the footage from camera number 7 of the 'Sant'Antonio' car park....
The same defence pool (referring to RS's lawyers d) asked to be able to perform some 'controanalisi' on objects upon which Raffaele's DNA was found."

This article is in the national part of the paper, so hopefully one of you kind people will be able to put a link up to it.

OT, Don't catholics pray to saint Anthony when they lose something?!

Studio 'murders, cats up trees and tits' Aperto have just reported, pretty much word for word, what was in that Nazione article...for what it's worth.

damian first day of sa at lords. smith won toss and put england in. england create history being the first test team to name an unchanged side for 6 consecutive matches. vaughn called south africans 'aggressive people'. pieterson called smith a 'muppet'. toys out of pram stuff here.

.

Cheers Rob, I'm listening on the radio. It's early doors, but so far so good agaisnt those pacy South Africans. A good toss to lose hopefully. We'll see (hear). Ciao.

What struck Professor Wilson first was how little space she devotes to Meredith with just a few cursory lines describing her as a good friend who 'protected me when she knew I was in an uncomfortable situation'.


He says: 'There's no insight or empathy or understanding for how her family must feel. Meredith emerges in the diary as the reason why Knox is in this predicament.'

Nor is there any sign in the diary that she really does want 'to remember'.


Instead, it amounts to a long, self-absorbed open letter, possibly written in the hope that Sollecito (who refuses to substantiate her alibi: that she spent the night of the murder with him at his flat) might somehow read it and take pity on her.


'I think the key thing the diary demonstrates is that Knox and her boyfriend were embroiled in a classic folie-a-deux (madness shared by two people),' Professor Wilson says.

I think most experts do say that the Meredith Kercher crime scene does not map to a single perpetrator

Damian wrote:

OT, Don't catholics pray to saint Anthony when they lose something?!

Yep, damian. That's correct.

damian wrote:These lines are translated from today's La Nazione Umbria.

" 'Happy Birthday, let's hope that justice prevails soon.' The birthday card for Amanda Knox was accompanied by a bunch of flowers, anthurium, and was taken to the cell by a member of the penetentiary police.
They were sent by her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito..."

"For a few weeks now, the two have been writing letters to each other. 'They have nothing to do in prison and considering that they shared a love story and that they both claim to be innocent, they write in general about their days', said Luca Maori, 'Raffaele chose the flowers, through interflora...nine anthurium, like the date of Knox's birthday.'

Wow, it sure appears that both sides believe they need each other. Looks like a major turnaround for Raffaele's camp. Their defense teams probably summed up all the risks and benefits and feel their best shot is to hang the whole murder on Rudy. There is a major chess match going on with the lawyers.

I don't know who to believe sent the flowers but it is such an odd choice. I am inclined to think whoever
sent them asked the florist to send something that lasts a long time. The only reason I say that is because
of reading they have a long vase life and since Amanda is going to be stuck there a while, why not send
something that will stick around? But golly gee whiz, those mean and sadistic Italian officials let her have
flowers? Fancy that...

JW wrote:

Hello TLC and Community,

I tend to think the same as you, Terry. Sending flowers, these flowers, to Amanda on her birthday is a departure from how things seem to have gone between AK and RS since incarceration

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Yes, he threw her over the cliff she landed on rocks but when he fell himself and needed her to help him up, he gave her a walking stick for a prize.


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Fly by Night Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Showboating

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Jumpy wrote:
I think the flowers are the beginning of a campaign to make him and/or her appear more human


Here in Hawaii, Anthuriums grow wild - something to be trammeled underfoot on the way to someplace else.



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I think so too Jumpy.



This is what Soll' did Fly By, he threw her away, abandoned her without any shame, but later, he was advised that his clever trick, had led him into a corner and he was trapped by that on all sides, so he needs her, he needs to show the outside world, well we have no argument, we both did nothing.

If they want to come across as innocent why would they go beyond being unable to get all details on one line by attacking each other, if they were innocent they would not do that, so that is what they worked out that to the outside world they must appear as a harmonious duo.

Be it because Guede is playing a different tune on his fiddle altogether, they want to appear as an orchestrated unison whilst Guede is the one man band, when, truth is, he is not a one man band, he looks like the accompanying fiddler that did not fly in through the roof or that window.
So none of them are part of the One Note Samba.

Their bitterly composed music is like discordant failed attempt at Baroque that sees the discord not being solved by harmonious tones.

Fiori per Amanda. Da Raffaele. A conferma che l’amore tra i due non si è spento....

....Ieri, in occasione del ventunesimo compleanno, Amanda si è vista recapitare, tramite Interflora, nella sua cella del carcere di Capanne, uno splendido mazzo di fiori. Anturium, riferiscono le fonti. Con la firma di Raffaele. Chissà quali congerie di sentimenti, quale tempesta si sarà scatenata nel cuore della studentessa di Seattle. L’anturium è un fiore bianco che sboccia in giugno e che è molto bello e decorativo. Chissà che non abbia anche un significato recondito. I due si erano conosciuti quindici giorni prima dell’arresto. Stavano ascoltando, ognuno con i propri amici, un concerto di musica classica a palazzo Gallenga. Galeotte furono quelle note. Chissà come, chissà perché Cupido scagliò in contemporanea le sue frecce. Gli sguardi che s’incontrano. il feeling che si stabilisce, le combinazioni chimiche che si scatenano: quella stessa sera Amanda, prende pochi abiti a casa sua e si trasferisce nell’appartamento di Raffaele, in corso Garibaldi. Quindici giorni di amore pieno, completo, assorbente. Il giorno della scoperta del cadavere di Mez, i due furono immortalati mentre si baciavano dolcemente nel giardino del cascinale. Due giorni più tardi - molto più prosaicamente - furono immortalati, in un negozio di intimo, dalla tv a circuito chiuso del locale, mentre acquistavano indumenti intimi hard e si ripromettevano di trascorrere ore d’amore e di sesso. Ora - proprio alla vigilia della richiesta di rinvio a giudizio che i pubblici ministeri Giuliano Mignini e Manuela Comodi stanno preparando - torna la scintilla dell’amore....


Corriere Dell'Umbria on the "spark of love" apparently rekindling. I'll leave it to someone else to better translate this story but I guess you get the picture.

Corrina wrote:

But golly gee whiz, those mean and sadistic Italian officials let her have
flowers?

They hit her over the head with them.

Il Messaggero Umbria on the flowers.

"A surprise for sure, and one that will please those who have implied that a 'getting back together ' of the two was likely. Even if it may raise questions about the reasons behind this gesture, apart from affection, it could be seen as pure, defensive strategy."

http://tinyurl.com/65auzd
'getting back together' was a bit tricky to translate. They say 'riavvicinamento', 'getting nearer again/making up/getting closer again...you get the picture.
BTW, if anyone was thinking of translating the CU article that Brian kindly linked, can I suggest they have a sick bucket to hand?

a2 wrote:Corrina wrote:

But golly gee whiz, those mean and sadistic Italian officials let her have
flowers?

They hit her over the head with them.

[font=Times New Roman]I'd like to know if the flowers were deprived of water during the interrogation.
And if so, can a formal floral complaint be lodged?[/font]