The True Crime Weblog Message Board

Charlie wrote:

BUT, I think most experts would say that the Meredith Kercher crime scene maps to a single perpetrator, albeit of a different personality type than the one in London. In fact, one such individual was interviewed in the British Ch. 4 program.

I don't think most experts would say that at all. And as you have pointed out, paid experts will say whatever you want them to. The guy you are referring to was hired by the Knox defense team early on. He is a paid expert who works for them. So his assessment must be understood within this context.

The experts will make their respective arguments in court and it will come down to who has the best arguments in light of other factors and evidence - both circumstantial and hard.

damian wrote:

BTW, if anyone was thinking of translating the CU article that Brian kindly linked, can I suggest they have a sick bucket to hand?

Hahha! It really was a sickenly "romantic" article, wasn't it? I was a little shocked that this appeared in a newspaper--seemed more like a bad bodice ripper! .

Hi A2. I've read some real rubbish over the past eight months but that takes the biscuit. It really is something else.
I wonder what he was thinking;

"Right, so the story is a bunch of flowers, what line shall I take? Maybe I could open up with 'Amor omnia vincit', yeah, that sounds good. Then I could talk about storms in the heart, and perhaps wonder why Cupid sometimes draws his arrows at the same time. Catullo is always a winner and what if I speculate about the two exchanging kisses in a cage in court? Yeah, in the bag."

Yes, damian, I was impressed with that "storm of the heart" bit, but my favorite is this gushing passage:

The eyes that meet. The feeling is established, the chemical combinations that trigger: that same evening Amanda, grabbed some clothes from her apartment,and moved to the apartment of Raffaele. Fifteen days of love full, complete, absorbing.

And now, still smitten (or maybe just nervous) he's sending her poisonous, phallic flowers....How romantic!

damian wrote:"For a few weeks now, the two have been writing letters to each other. 'They have nothing to do in prison and considering that they shared a love story and that they both claim to be innocent, they write in general about their days', said Luca Maori, 'Raffaele chose the flowers, through interflora...nine anthurium, like the date of Knox's birthday.'

In the same article from La Nazione Umbria. Again, my translation.

"The request for the acquisition of the footage from camera number 7 of the 'Sant'Antonio' car park....
The same defence pool (referring to RS's lawyers d) asked to be able to perform some 'controanalisi' on objects upon which Raffaele's DNA was found."

This article is in the national part of the paper, so hopefully one of you kind people will be able to put a link up to it.

OT, Don't catholics pray to saint Anthony when they lose something?!

Hi Damian,

This link is currently proving to be a little elusive, but I haven't got much time. I've got a wet paint brush in my hand and the door is only halfway done.

"A few weeks" eh, perhaps since the 20th June??

It strikes me that everything is currently coming from Raffaele's side and Luca Maori seeks to make the reconciliation official.

I have a theory which may seem a little outlandish, so I must check up on a few things before putting it out.

But first things first - back to the door.

a2 wrote:

Hahha! It really was a sickenly "romantic" article, wasn't it? I was a little shocked that this appeared in a newspaper--seemed more like a bad bodice ripper! .

It is amazing what happens to all forms of media in the summer.

Hi all. Frank has a new posting up.

According to Frank's new post, RG is going to take the opposite path as regards rito abbreviato than RS and AK.

How he knows these things, who can tell.

Sorry, DLW. Yours appeared while I was posting.

Lyrics from the song This Is It (This Is Your Soul) by Dave Stewart of the Hothouse Flowers:


You've been disturbed from your sleep
You've been laid down on the floor
You've been looking around for your family
Now your body's tired and sore
Well there's rest that's in the water
And there's an answer on the streets
And if you take the time to listen
There's a chance you will meet
Your soul
This is it
This is your soul
This is it

When your world falls down around you
Not the most comfortable place
You've been looking into a room full of strangers
But now you recognise one face
It's a reflection on the water
It's the word that's in the street
Say it now is the time to listen
Take the time to meet

Your soul
This is it
This is your soul
This is it
And they're talking at you not with you
And you're bored with what's around
And you've tried all the quacks, all the doctors and all you really need
And all you really need is a healing sound

But just listen to the waters
Find the answer on the street
Because now it's time to listen, now it's time to meet
Your soul, now this is it
It's time to meet your soul
Your crying soul
This is your soul
Set free your soul

This is it, set it free, let the light inside
Shine from the inside out
Oh let the light inside shine
From the inside out
Let the light inside

Brian S. wrote:

damian wrote:About the cctv footage. The lawyers have similar investigative powers to the pm. I think it would be a surprise if RS's team had not seen the footage they have asked for since this could be risky for them. Lawyers don't tend to ask 'questions' if they don't have a pretty good idea what the 'answer' will be. The pm has 20 days to do what has been requested of him.

Damian,

After reading several accounts of this request, I'm not so sure they have seen it. It's obviously in addition to some CCTV footage which they have already acquired as part of the documentation.

I legali del giovane pugliese vogliono acquisire i filmati di una telecamera che potrebbe aver ripreso la zona di Via della Pergola la mattina del ritrovamento del cadavere....

This from Tam Tam
reads very much like could have filmed, as in it's uncertain what has been captured.




La difesa di Raffaele Sollecito ha avanzato la richiesta di acquisizione delle immagini registrate il 2 novembre scorso dalle telecamere del parcheggio di fronte via della Pergola. Secondo gli avvocati i filmati potrebbero essere utili per ricostruire i movimenti di Raffaele e Amanda

La Nazione also seems to be saying "could".

CCTV is obviously playing a part in reconstructing this story and I don't see any reason for the prosecution not to include this footage in this package if it contained anything relevent to the case. If Raffaele and Amanda are obvious in the footage I'm sure the police would have released it as part of the case. Raffaele and Amanda arriving with the mop at 11:30 is hardly going to be surprising to anyone. Is it so dangerous? If Raffaele and Amanda were seen at 8:30 I'm sure it would already form part of the prosecution case.

Hi Brian. You might be right; maybe they haven't seen it. What I should have said is that I'd be very surprised if there is anything that could worsen their client's situation on that footage. Maybe they know it's 'safe' to ask for it based on what their client has told them, or maybe, as part of their investigations, they've seen it. Maybe they want to make use of whatever it shows, or doesn't show, to make some point in court. There's also a possibility that this decision was connected in some way to the 'scadenze dei termini'. The Nazione reported that they made their request 'minutes' before the deadline. The pm now has 20 days to give them what they want.
In CPP,(the link is on the legal thread) art 391bis, you can find 5 pages on the 'Investigazione Difensive.' There's a bit on the 'richiesta di documentazione alla pubblica amministrazione', along with lots of other interesting stuff. I'd wrongly assumed that the car parks in Perugia were run by the local council but in fact, they're run by a company called SIPA Spa. If those cameras belonged to the local council, the defence lawyers could just go and get a copy of them now. Since they probably belong to SIPA (right?), your guess is as good as mine as to whether they've already seen the footage during their investigations.

Anyway, I think they must know that footage is 'safe'. I reckon they know this either from what RS has said or because they've seen it. Why they've asked for it is another question.

With regards to these articles, if you take what the lawyers say at face value, it does indeed seem that they haven't seen the footage.

From PS:

"Amanda's lawyers claim that Meredith's DNA on the blade is not a match and that there's no trace of Amanda in the room.
But they didn't try to convince the PM about that"

.
[font=Times New Roman]Why not? Is it because it can be easily contested in court, so they're not concerned about it?

O/T: My disclaimer font appears to have grown overnight [/font]

As regards the CCTV footage, if there is footage of AK and RS arriving at the cottage on Thursday morning at around the times they said they did, its absence from the atti will be used by the evil-Mignini brigade as proof that he has suppressed evidence in their favour.

And as regards rito abbreviato: RS's high-profile team will push for full trial. They are making lots of money, and la Bongiorno will not turn down the chance to shine in a high-profile trial which the media will cover like sharks.

Rito abbreviato has to be the cheaper option. We still do not know who is paying for RG's defence.

Way back, perhaps in December, it was suggested that it was the Ivorian consulate/embassy in Rome. That is unlikely to be the case. The Côte d'Ivoire is not Africa's richest country. And in any case, no country can offer consular assistance to dual citizens when they are in the other country of which they hold citizenship. If the C.d'I. did offer consular assistance, it can only have been in Germany.

Hi Soozie,

I have this impression that the judge is under no obligation to permit the shortened trial, I may be wrong.

Reason I think it can be denied is because it may be believed by the judge that the only way to do justice is have it go to full trial,

like Guede,

if he gets the right to rito abreviato, and he is needed in court to work as part of the scheme of things in exposing the truth about the other two then I think he will be denied that request for a shortened trial.





I really want to know the facts on this,

even Frank Shock, says things but does not say how he knows it,
in that way, it may be right but it may also be incorrect,


I asked Damian about this point but no answer,


I want to know if a person asks for abbreviato is it always given, I think it is not always given.

I even have official documents which were translated into many languages stating as much.

in that way, it may be right but it may also be incorrect,

like Frank's incorrect translations of certain things understood in Italy and in Italian that way, but not in English, like that 'popular judge' it means absolutely nothing in English. To translate a thing literally is not how professional translations are done because it leads to meaningless langauge.

Popular judge is understood by ordinary people in Italy because they are used to such a term, it means more to them than the actual word popular, it covers the entire idea or concept behind it but when you translate that into English literally it has no meaning at all.

I know about this because I translate and this is one of the main things to watch out for, this is 'Italglish,' popular judge my arse. In each language there are different ways of saying things.

I mean, who is the guy? is he a lawyer? a professor of law? a policeman? an expert? is it so, that all he says must be absorbed and accepted as if it is direct from the highest seat of learning in Italy?
I do not think so.

He has nothing on his site really about who he is and at which level he has the authority to speak even if he does seem to get a lot of inside information.

What is he, is he a journalist? I don't think he is a lawyer?

If the judge considers it possible to adjudicate on the basis of the said evidence, he/she pronounces the judgement. Where a sentence is pronounced, the penalty is reduced by one-third.


buuuuuuuuuut

what if he or she considers it impossible????????

Minotaur wrote:According to Frank's new post, RG is going to take the opposite path as regards rito abbreviato than RS and AK.

How he knows these things, who can tell.

Rudy Guede's attorney Walter Biscotti is waiting for the trial and aims to split Rudy's position from that of Amanda and Raffaele, trial included. So if they choose the regular one, he's gonna choose the abbreviated one and vice-versa...

Perugia-Shock

Minotaur, I can only say that Frank has had access to Biscotti's thoughts before, and of course Biscotti gave him that interview. Perhaps, he knows him well enough for Biscuits to occasionaly give him some tit bits???

Rudy's announced position raises some interesting questions.

If he can only plead guilty at an abbreviated trial does that imply Biscotti thinks he won't be charged with murder?
The assumption in the press has always been that Rudy would go for the short trial.

Is Biscotti's position the cause of Raffaele's and Amanda's reacquaintance or is it caused by their new found friendship?

Will Rudy be a witness for the prosecution at the trial of Raffaele and Amanda?

Indie,

Both defense teams received the Court evidence just under 20 days ago. The flowers given by Raffaele Sollecito represent a white flag; better start working together now that the heat is on.

Raffaele Sollecito can still change his alibi and some of the other statements that he has made to the contrary of Amanda Knox. But he cannot change his involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher. There is indisputable evidence of his involvement as well as that of Amanda Knox.

And yes they will fight tooth and nail and try their level best to mitigate the circumstances and get the Court to reduce their sentences. That is all that Raffaele Sollecito has left; that and the ability to continually use the system, like the flowers for example.

Isn't he on record for calling the cops "dumb?"

Minotaur wrote:As regards the CCTV footage, if there is footage of AK and RS arriving at the cottage on Thursday morning at around the times they said they did, its absence from the atti will be used by the evil-Mignini brigade as proof that he has suppressed evidence in their favour.

Here's an article that appeared in the Seattle Times on November 13, 2007 that talks about CCTV footage. Guede had not yet been publicly implicated, but they were on to him - they had his prints. The article is uniqe in that it was written for the Times by a freelance reporter based in Rome:

http://tinyurl.com/5cgn7j

At that time:

The police would not comment on (or reveal the contents of?) security camera footage citing Italian law that limits the types of information that could be released as part of an open investigation.

Ghirga, Knox's lawyer, said that Knox had provided different versions of what happened the night of the murder and that it was difficult to evaluate which one was true.

Sollecito had thrown Knox to the dogs, saying he did not see Knox between 9 PM on 1 November and early in the morning of 2 November.

The police were estimating that Kercher's throat was cut around 11 PM on 1 November and that evidence indicated that she may not have died until up to two hours later.

The police found Knox's fingerprints in Kercher's room but none were found in her own room, leading to the theory of a cleanup.

The police apparently found a high-heeled shoe in Kercher's room that did not belong to either Kercher or Knox (do vampires wear high heels?).

The police claimed that the knife used to make cuts on Kercher's throat matched a short knife owned by Sollecito and that the bloody footprint near Kercher's body matched his athletic shoes, but Papa appeared on Italian television saying that many types of knives could make a similar mark and that the shoes Sollecito wore were too common to base a case on (this was before Guede was in the picture).

TLC wrote:If the judge considers it possible to adjudicate on the basis of the said evidence, he/she pronounces the judgement. Where a sentence is pronounced, the penalty is reduced by one-third.


buuuuuuuuuut

what if he or she considers it impossible????????

Hi TLC. I've been meaning to get back to you on this, sorry for the delay. I'm out the door and will try to explain in more detail later. You're right, there is that if, but the chances of the judge not being able to decide if the suspects are guilty or innocent on the basis of a 10,000 page file full of perizie, fingerprints, witness statements, DNA, reports from RIS, the texts of the interrogations, etc etc are next to nil. The cases in which the request for the rito are refused are few and far between and this won't be one of them. Remember too, that it's no skin off anybody's nose if the lawyers ask for the rito. The suspects have the right to the rito. It's only denied in exceptional cases when a crucial thing is missing from the file like, for example a witness who saw everything but wasn't interviewed. Even in this case, they would probably go for the condizionato and slot them in. It's often in everyone's interest to go for the rito

right Damian cheers for that.


I also imagined that too, what you now write, about not much chance, but, it is possible when things are very complicated, because of several people being involved and needing that all to play out in open court (just ideas here)

I know what you mean, the judge ought to be able to decide with 10,000 pages to aid that, but I had been thinking about how the cross interactions go in court, now I suppose then, as Brian said, it will be a case of calling Guede as a witness against the other two.


Thankyou


Terry

From Rudy's Appeal:

Rudy:
The knife with Meredith's DNA was found at someone else's place of residence, and the prosecutor has attributed the execution of the murder to other people, without describing my role in cooperating in the crime or advancing arguments for it. Accordingly, the principle of 'co-operation of a group in a crime' was wrongly applied.
Indeed, my mere presence at the crime scene does not prove my co-operation in the crime because if one considers that a co-operative crime has a unitary nature, it is necessary to analyze the conduct of every single suspect in order to demonstrate a necessary link —material, functional or psychological— to the commission of the crime itself.


Supreme Court:
In order to assess the serious clues of guilt we must consider the peculiarity of the investigatory phase, which implies the necessary fluidity of the charges (S.C. 2004 and 1996). This means that new data can still be added to the investigative picture. Accordingly, an exhaustive definition of conduct and psychological elements is not necessary.
It is true that, even during the preliminary investigations, when we have a group crime every participant must have acted with knowledge of the role of the others, and must have willingly acted in concert (ex multis, S.C. 2003), but the "description" of the conduct, meaning the role of the co-participant, does not have to be a necessarily immutable datum between the time of notification and the final decision [i.e., the judge's sentence].
The principle of correlation between notification and sentencing is not violated—not even if we move from the charge of material co-participant to arrive at the role of moral co-participant.This case would mean a relationship of limitation and not of heterogeneneity between the first and second role (S.C. 2007, 2006, 2005). [the S.C. means that, in the eyes of the law, the first role (that of material co-participant) is not different in nature from the second role (that of moral co-participant), so the two roles are not heterogeneous].

Your role and conduct at this stage does not need to be fully understood by the judges. It is only necessary that your co-operation—conscious and deliberate—be indisputable with respect to the homicidal action. At this point, whether or not the Court's assessment of the role of author or material co-author, of sender, instigator, conscious 'strengthener' is attributable to you is a matter of indifference in so far as the application oh these measures [the ongoing detention] are concerned. From this perspective and within this scope, the Court's interpretation was correct. It moved from your admission of having been present in Kercher's apartment before, during and after the murder and of having spent time with her, even with incomplete sexual intercourse, for a long fraction of time, to then going to the toilet during those few minutes in which an unknown assailant allegedly entered the house and committed the murder, to then fleeing as soon as he met you, as you returned from tending to your physiological needs.

From the admission of your presence at the place, your acquaintance with the victim and the sexual intimacy you had with her, the Court, logically and thoroughly, excluded—because they are wholly lacking in credibility and indisputably false— your statements according to which you were supposed to meet the young girl. Your 'strategic' withdrawal to the toilet, the unexpected and violent appearance of the stranger, his immediate flight, even if he was armed and only because you threatened him with a chair, your version of the position and condition of Meredith's body and of your fingerprints near it, and your version of a separate flight —first of the aggressor and then of yourself (contrasting with the witness who heard more than one person fleeing right after the scream of pain launched by a woman).
The lack of any credibility of these versions led the Court to the logical conclusion that there are serious and concordant clues that your participation in the crime was active, conscious and deliberate, even though there is currently some doubt as to exactly how it happened.

Perugia-Shock

Following this Rudy asked to be interviewed again and that happened on May 14.

Has Rudy given them an "improved version" of his truth given March 26.

Even at this stage it is apparent that Biscuits is trying to separate Rudy from Raffaele and Amanda.

"A few weeks" eh, perhaps since the 20th June??

It strikes me that everything is currently coming from Raffaele's side and Luca Maori seeks to make the reconciliation official.

I have a theory which may seem a little outlandish, so I must check up on a few things before putting it out.

FWIW

My theory was that Rudy was not about to be charged with murder.

Amanda and Raffaele would be and this would necessitate a united front.

"For me, it's not her birthday," Curt told ABC News. "I had hoped to have her (Amanda) go out and buy me a cocktail, a privilege she should have earned today at home’

I don’t know. I think it would have sounded better if he said that they would go out to a Ben & Jerry’s and share an ice cream soda. Instead of going out and having a couple cocktails. Didn’t that help lead to her unfortunate memory loss? Maybe he meant that only he would drink.

DLW wrote:"For me, it's not her birthday," Curt told ABC News. "I had hoped to have her (Amanda) go out and buy me a cocktail, a privilege she should have earned today at home’

I don’t know. I think it would have sounded better if he said that they would go out to a Ben & Jerry’s and share an ice cream soda. Instead of going out and having a couple cocktails. Didn’t that help lead to her unfortunate memory loss? Maybe he meant that only he would drink.

But that would be odd, and kind of sadistic, wouldn't it? To make her buy a drink and not allow her to have one? You're being too kind DLW. You're right, it doesn't sound good. True it's her 21st, and it comes with a right she cannot enjoy while in prison, but how can it be important when she's in prison?

Brian S wrote:

My theory was that Rudy was not about to be charged with murder.
Amanda and Raffaele would be and this would necessitate a united front.

I think this could be true, Brian. While initially, RS and AK were figuring that Rudy would take the fall, the situation has turned 180 degrees. Rudy has beaten them to the punch. Besides having a tasty name, Biscotti is a very smart attorney.

The fear that Rudy would give him up has been unnerving RS fear for a while, as he stated in his diary:

the real murderer...an Ivorian of 22 years, they have found him in Germany. Papa I saw happy and smiling, but I for the moment am not calm 100% because I fear that he will invent strange things.

He just may have it. Brian, I mean. Raffaele's lawyers sure wanted to know what Rudy said...if you're innocent, why? What a wicked, tangled mess.

damian wrote:These lines are translated from today's La Nazione Umbria...

"For a few weeks now, the two have been writing letters to each other. 'They have nothing to do in prison and considering that they shared a love story and that they both claim to be innocent, they write in general about their days', said Luca Maori, 'Raffaele chose the flowers, through interflora...nine anthurium, like the date of Knox's birthday.'

Hi Damian. The use of the word "claim" strikes me as strange for a lawyer to use in talking about his client. Would that be normal in Italy?

I’ve been thinking about those crazy flowers that were sent to Amanda and I came up with a slightly different slant, although it echoes Sparrow’s observations.

Because of the urgent need to get RS and AK’s defensive strategies on the same page, I think it was probably RS’ legal team that came up with the idea to send flowers to AK for her birthday. The PR people on the team would also like this idea because it would cast a more favorable light on the two--humanize them as someone else here suggested.

However, I think it was RS who chose the flowers. Think back on how the two of them behaved in the lingerie store, giggling, kissing and talking dirty—IMO, this kind of giggly, overt sexiness defined their relationship. I think that Raffaele would choose anthurium as a bit of a dirty joke and he knew that Amanda would recognize it as that and laugh. it’s actually a pretty shrewd way to re-establish that semi-subversive, personal connection the two of them had (So much for the Harry Potter resemblance).

a2 wrote:However, I think it was RS who chose the flowers. Think back on how the two of them behaved in the lingerie store, giggling, kissing and talking dirty—IMO, this kind of giggly, overt sexiness defined their relationship. I think that Raffaele would choose anthurium as a bit of a dirty joke and he knew that Amanda would recognize it as that and laugh. it’s actually a pretty shrewd way to re-establish that semi-subversive, personal connection the two of them had (So much for the Harry Potter resemblance).

Hey a2, your guess is more realistic than mine.

Hi Sparrow,

You said...
"Hi Damian. The use of the word "claim" strikes me as strange for a lawyer to use in talking about his client. Would that be normal in Italy? "

I totally agree with you! You'd think a lawyer might say something like "...they shared a love story, and both ARE innocent." I hope Damian can clarify that for us.



Hi A2,


You said...
"However, I think it was RS who chose the flowers."

I agree with you here. These are strange flowers indeed - and poisonous!

No matter what the interpretation of the flowers sent might be, the mere fact that two people in custody would act like this and not send any kind of condolence to the Kercher family really brings us right back to square one. The omnipresent narcissistic behavior on the part of these two people.

It is as if both of them are back at the lingerie store.being lovey dovey and all of that. I had trouble understanding their personalities back then, and still do today, even though the two of them are incarcerated. I think the two of them deserve one another. They are playing the same game that previously brought about the demise of Meredith Kercher.

So my honest answer to the flower giving is: Whatever.

damian wrote:[ It's often in everyone's interest to go for the rito

Even Giulia Bongiorno's?

bpcl wrote:No matter what the interpretation of the flowers sent might be, the mere fact that two people in custody would act like this and not send any kind of condolence to the Kercher family really brings us right back to square one. The omnipresent narcissistic behavior on the part of these two people.

Good point, Beep.

Just a few reactions to the week's news...



Have a good weekend!

And special cheers to Sparrow and TLC (for the inspiration).

May

May wrote:Have a good weekend!

And special cheers to Sparrow and TLC (for the inspiration).

May

Haha! Oh May, thanks. I knew you were cooking something up! You have a good weekend too!

Sparrow wrote:

damian wrote:These lines are translated from today's La Nazione Umbria...

"For a few weeks now, the two have been writing letters to each other. 'They have nothing to do in prison and considering that they shared a love story and that they both claim to be innocent, they write in general about their days', said Luca Maori, 'Raffaele chose the flowers, through interflora...nine anthurium, like the date of Knox's birthday.'

Hi Damian. The use of the word "claim" strikes me as strange for a lawyer to use in talking about his client. Would that be normal in Italy?

Sparrow do you know the Italian wording? I can't find the article. Could it be "sostengono"?
Hope all is well-have a great we

Hey May,

I vil tell no von zat zer are police people inside zose burds

TLC -
hi....that's why we have Sparrow to defend us!

M

nicki wrote:Sparrow do you know the Italian wording? I can't find the article. Could it be "sostengono"?
Hope all is well-have a great we

Hi Nicki! I don't know. I didn't see the article. Thanks for looking though.

For those who think a reason for killing someone is always necessary, please read about the late murder of the Italian tourist in Spain-Federica Squarise- I posted about it a couple of days ago.While on the run the murderer sought the help of his friends, but they turned him in to the police. He confessed the murder by suffocation- the LE 's still uncertain if he also raped her, due to the awful conditions of the body after one week it's difficult to ascertain.They are speculating she might have been killed because she refused sexual intercourse, thus enraging the murderer, who blame alcohol and drugs for the "accident".

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Regioni/Ve ... 2328673461

skeptical bystander wrote:Charlie wrote:

BUT, I think most experts would say that the Meredith Kercher crime scene maps to a single perpetrator, albeit of a different personality type than the one in London. In fact, one such individual was interviewed in the British Ch. 4 program.

I don't think most experts would say that at all. And as you have pointed out, paid experts will say whatever you want them to. The guy you are referring to was hired by the Knox defense team early on. He is a paid expert who works for them. So his assessment must be understood within this context.

The experts will make their respective arguments in court and it will come down to who has the best arguments in light of other factors and evidence - both circumstantial and hard.

Exactly. The consultants will shape their testimony to serve the interest of whoever their client is... but how convincing they are will depend on how well the facts fit their respective theories. I happen to have at my fingertips E. Lustgarten's writeup of a famous UK case in 1949, John Haigh, the "acid bath murderer." Haigh's defense team hired a well-known psychiatrist who tried his best to argue that Haigh's mental state was consistent with the legal definition of insanity, but it was an impossible assignment because of the facts. Haigh was a wily character who just got sloppy after getting away with a number of previous murders, and he met his deserved fate at the end of a rope.

I think it will be similar with the consultants in this case. They will all have the same facts to work with, and we'll see whose theory holds up against those facts.

May, I know,

I'll tell ya a secret

she has been known to poo om those she dislikes

dive bombs em

goodness the librarian has arrived

where's Sparrow when ya needs her

Hi Nicki,

How dreadful. Nowords for it, just gets to me that women are so often victims of the insanity in this world, weak cowards like that dong such awful things.

Going to read your link.


That's how it ought to be, very good indeed that the friends turned him in.

More on Walter Biscotti's strategy:

Each set of lawyers has now seen all the evidence against their clients.

Each set of lawyers must now know what charges to expect against their clients.

If what Frank reports about Walter's strategy is true:

He will (have to) plead guilty at a short trial OR (I assume) not guilty at a full trial.

His plea will effectively depend on decisions made by Raffaele's and Amanda's teams.

If Rudy is charged with murder and Raffaele and Amanda opt for a full trial, Walter has effectively made Rudy an admitted murderer. I don't see him placing that choice in the hands of others. If Rudy was going to plead guilty to murder and take the opportunity of a reduced sentence, surely he would do that independently of the choices made by the other two.

Or would he?

If Raffaele and Amanda plead guilty at a short trial, Rudy may stand a better chance with a not guilty plea at a full trial since he has taken care to separate himself from the other two and they will have already pleaded guilty to the murder.

Whatever charge is eventually laid against Rudy, I do think his evidence will be used by the prosecution against the other two.

The ball is now in their court.

They will both be charged with murder and they now know the evidence they have against them, which brings me to Raffaele's renewed courtship of Amanda.

If it was Amanda who struck the death blow why would Raffaele want to draw her closer.

If it was Raffaele who struck the death blow I can fully understand why.

I don't think the prosecution are able to put a knife in Rudy's hands and neither can Raffaele or Amanda without admitting their presence.

ISTM the ball is now in Amanda's court and it's her and her team we haven't heard from in the last few weeks. I wonder what they make of the statements of Rudy and the Albanian and all the other evidence they are now privy to?

Will Amanda respond to, or reject Raffaele's advances? I think it's about time she made a sensible decision.

OT

Biscotti has a new job, but on a different side.

He's representing the mother/family of the prostitute recently murdered in Perugia.

....Tutti sapevano chi era ma soprattutto che lavoro faceva Ana Maria, e l’obiettivo degli investigatori, che conoscono molto bene le facce e le abitudini (anche dei protettori), è ricostruire quelle due ore che l’hanno separata dalla sua amica connazionale con la quale abitava. La madre della ventenne è arrivata ieri mattina da Milano. A lei è toccato il riconoscimento del cadavere della figlia: una scena straziante.

La donna lavora da qualche tempo nel capoluogo lombardo, dove fa la custode domestica. "Non me ne andrò da Perugia se non insieme ad Ana" ha detto all’avvocato Valter Biscotti, al quale ha dato l’incarico di rappresentarla come persona offesa dal reato nell'indagine in corso per fare luce sul delitto. Ora è in un'abitazione della Caritas, a Perugia: l’associazione cattolica l’ha presa in custodia. La donna, ieri, è stata anche ascoltata in questura....

La Nazione

Hi Brian

Those are really good points to think about.
Good thinking there.

rob wrote:charlie last night the met arrested another 2 people in relation to the killing of the french students. one is a woman. you have applied prejudice in your reasoning. i am sure you had previous case histories to inform your prejudice just as the perugia police did when they found persons at the scene of a murder. such persons are to be considered suspects according to the prejudice that arises from previous case histories of murder investigations by police.

What you are calling prejudice is what the FBI calls profiling. In cases where victims are stabbed dozens of times after they are already dead, experts will advise the authorities to look for someone who suffers from serious mental illness. Nigel Farmer is a homeless man who presented himself to the authorities with burns on his face and hands, which suggests he might be such a person. The courtroom sketch likewise seems to portray a disturbed individual. People like that usually act on impulse, without much planning, and are too erratic to collaborate with others... but in this case, certain elements of the crime scene clearly suggest multiple perps. How could one mentally ill assailant armed only with a knife have bound and gagged two healthy young men? I am very interested in how this turns out.

I realize this is a digression, but I think it's relevant because it ties into the subject of profiling and crime scene analysis, which I expect will play an important role when the Perugia case is tried.

rob wrote:killers often stand in the crowd to watch the police at the scene of a discovered killing. bundy is a famous example. i am sure you know this.

you have not answered my question regarding the lack of bloodied/partially bloodied foot prints leading out of Merediths room. where are they? you have not answered but it is obvious to see in the photos that the tiles had been cleaned after the murder and the blood of the nike prints was diffused because of the floor or shoes being wet with a liquid other than blood.

you cannot pick and choose and expect to be taken seriously..

I'm not sure what your question is, but I am skeptical about the significance of latent footprints in the hallway, which I think Knox created after taking a shower on the day after the murder. But the caveat is that I don't know how to analyze luminol-based images, beyond picking out the obvious shape of bare feet. I suspect it's like fingerprint analysis, something that requires training and the experience of examining many images. Does anyone here have that training and experience?

The thing that interests me at the the moment is RS's lawyers asking for that CCTV footage. There must be a reason for this.
As I was saying before, I think we can assume that they know that whatever is on that footage is 'safe'; in the sense that it will not worsen their client's situation. (either because of what RS has told them or because they've seen it, IMO)
It's possible that they just want to add another 20 days, in the hope that the 'scadenze dei termini' may kick in at some moment in the future. I'm not sure how convincing this theory is though. I reckon it would be pretty odd if there was nothing of significance on that footage, but I wouldn't exclude that possibility yet.
From the way the articles referring to this were worded, it might be plausible to think that they had asked for that footage to be looked at back in November and were therefore surprised that it was not included in the file.
It's perhaps also plausible to think that there might be something 'positive' for RS (and AK) on that footage. I haven't given a theory here for months and months but here goes nothing. Maybe, just maybe, they think, or know, that RG is on that footage. Maybe somekind of pact was made, or broken, on the morning of Nov2 at the house between all 3 of them. Is it possible that for whatever reason, that the other 2 weren't picked up on that camera, but RG was? I know this may sound fanciful but it would perhaps tie in with the supposed 'disappearing turd story' that AK gave. It could also explain why RS's lawyers have asked to see this footage. Maybe they want to suggest, with the help of this footage, that RG was also responsible for the 'clean-up'. This is probably all nonsense but I'm trying to figure out why they've asked for it. Please feel free to shoot and sink this theory, or offer other reasons behind this request.
BTW, Does anyone know if this footage is likely to still exist? Don't these cameras tape over stuff on a regular basis? It's certainly possible however that someone got a copy of it back in November and as Brian said, surely the police would have checked it out back then.

Sparrow, Tara, Nicki. This is the line in question.
"Non hanno niente di fare in carcere e considerando che insieme hanno vissuto una storia d'amore, e che entrambi si ritengono innocenti, parlano genericamente delle loro giornate"

Maybe 'consider' or 'believe' would have been a better translation but it's much of a muchness.

Damian,

oh I see the CCTV reels were not included in the files available tothe defence teams?

Hi TLC. According to RS's lawyers, the footage from this camera number 7 was not in the PM's file.

damian wrote:Hi TLC. According to RS's lawyers, the footage from this camera number 7 was not in the PM's file.

Is it correct that they only requested the tapes from midnight on? Any guesses why? If the footage is not in the files already, it would be interesting to see the tapes from before midnight as well .

jw

I feel like anything and everything that the RS team has done has been posturing and deceitful. Just because they are asking for CCTV does not necessarily mean anything. We've been told all along by the defense that the cameras were not even pointed in the right direction. Who knows. Who told whom that this is what they asked for in the first place? Who released it about the flowers anyway? I wouldn't expect anything different if the defense teams asked for everything. I just feel like it is all a big play. The trial is far off and they need serious damage control. They needed to ask for something yesterday, they needed something positive in the newspapers. Just as the defendents may claim leaks we have seen so much on their part of leaks. It is all pr on all sides.

It could be something good for them, it could be something to say when you have nothing to say.

It's just gross. Poor Meredith. Phase II.

ps. I laughed at what someone said about waking up with a horse head! Now that is a message!

TLC wrote:she has been known to poo om those she dislikes

Pardon your Dutch, TLC!

Damian wrote:Maybe 'consider' or 'believe' would have been a better translation but it's much of a muchness.

I see. It still seems a strange word for his lawyer to use. Kind of removed. I was wondering if that was the style over there, that since legally they are not yet declared innocent, that even their own lawyers don't assert it, but rather speak very specifically saying they "believe" or "maintain" their innocence, not that they "are" innocent.

And the good news today was, according to Frank's Perugia Shock, 'time has run out' for the three suspects in custody.

We have been discussing this case with each other for nigh over 9 months now.

Justice moved a little close today. With a crime so vicious and almost purposeless, none of the three people in custody were able to proclaim their innocence to the point where they could be set free. Now this does not mean that they are guilty of the crime of murdering Meredith Kercher.

But it does mean that the Court believes that it has found the responsible people. And we shall see how good the vaunted case the defenses will have. What we do know is the following:

1.) The coerced confessions defense is irrelevant.

2.) One defendant has been charged with slandering

3.) Two defendants have been charged with "Changing the Crime Scene."

4.) All three defendants have been charged with 'Voluntary Homicide."

5.) All three defendants systematically lied about their whereabouts on the night of November 1st, 2007

The only fight left for each of these three individuals is to argue the evidence. We shall see where this goes. The future is not bright for each of them. All three have lost their battles with the Court and most specifically, on the day they decided to cause physical harm against Meredith Kercher.

Justice did indeed move a little closer today for Meredith and her Family. yes indeed.

okay, now I understand.

I get the feeling some concrete info will be coming out soon

Those points Brian made are something to think about, I cannot decide who I consider as the killer, who could be capable of doing it, et cetera.

But because neither denounces the other then it seems it is sure they were entangled right up front in it together and what actually happened as to actions, words, fighting, means the one that did the actual killing is no more guilty than the one that may have urged the other on, or they both encouraged one and other.

TLC,

Since none of the trio will admit much to anything, all three have been charged with the crime. One would think that if one had nothing to do with the crime, that one would speak out. Their silence is deafening. IMHO, it is as good as saying that all three yielded the knife. If one did not, then one would expect that person to scream out; not one of the three has spoken out.

It might have been that all three taunted Meredith, therefore no one of the three can proclaim their innocence.

‘BTW, Does anyone know if this footage is likely to still exist? Don't these cameras tape over stuff on a regular basis? It's certainly possible however that someone got a copy of it back in November and as Brian said, surely the police would have checked it out back then‘….damian

Some of the CCTV camera’s on the internet have a 30 day capacity and that’s with a 250 Gb hard drive, which is not expensive and even common now a days. Some camera’s have much higher capacity. The older types used VCR tapes which only had a capacity for 8 hours. I would think most of those have been replaced by now.

bpcl wrote:Since none of the trio will admit much to anything, all three have been charged with the crime.

Beep,

Time has run out. The defense teams of Rudy Guede, Amanda Knox and Raffalele Sollecito, after being notified that the investigation was over, had 20 days to ask that their clients be released and no charges filed. But nobody asked for anything. And if they don't ask... they don't get.

Perugia-Shock

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't yet believe we know with any certainty exactly what each individual will be charged with at trial.

Prosecutor calls for Kercher suspects to be charged

The prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, will pass his findings to the lawyers of the three suspects who have 20 days to raise objections. A judge will then decide whether there are sufficient grounds to charge the alleged killers. All three deny involvement in the killing, although Mr Guede admits that he was in the flat on the evening in question. The first hearing could take place in September...

The Independent

I believe the judge will decide exactly what charges each one faces.

Will they all face a murder charge or will there be some attempt to differentiate between Rudy and the other two?

If Rudy is charged with rape/sexual assault what charges will Raffaele and Amanda face in connection?

The slander charge obviously only affects Amanda, Mignini wants it but will the judge actually file that charge against her?

yes Beep difficult to work out, but, maybe the people who have the case in their hands have the loose ends tied up.

If it had been only Guede, then police, prosecutor, judges would have been happy to get it done with, but it is not as simple as that.

BRIAN:
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't yet believe we know with any certainty exactly what each individual will be charged with at trial.




yes that is what I thought too Brian,

Brian S. wrote:If it was Amanda who struck the death blow why would Raffaele want to draw her closer.

If it was Raffaele who struck the death blow I can fully understand why.

Hi Brian.

Do you think it's possible Raffaele might want to draw closer to Amanda even if she made the final stab simply because there's too much evidence of them being together that night when he says they weren't? If they both engaged in the brutalization of MK, does it matter which of them made the final stab? Possibly he's given up on pretending he wasn't with Amanda, so now he has to come up with a defense that says that yes they were together, but no, they didn't kill her.

So maybe he can't separate himself from Amanda anymore, simply because the evidence says he can't.

Brian S. wrote:More on Walter Biscotti's strategy:

Each set of lawyers has now seen all the evidence against their clients.

Each set of lawyers must now know what charges to expect against their clients.

If what Frank reports about Walter's strategy is true:

He will (have to) plead guilty at a short trial OR (I assume) not guilty at a full trial.

His plea will effectively depend on decisions made by Raffaele's and Amanda's teams.

If Rudy is charged with murder and Raffaele and Amanda opt for a full trial, Walter has effectively made Rudy an admitted murderer. I don't see him placing that choice in the hands of others. If Rudy was going to plead guilty to murder and take the opportunity of a reduced sentence, surely he would do that independently of the choices made by the other two.

Or would he?

If Raffaele and Amanda plead guilty at a short trial, Rudy may stand a better chance with a not guilty plea at a full trial since he has taken care to separate himself from the other two and they will have already pleaded guilty to the murder.

Whatever charge is eventually laid against Rudy, I do think his evidence will be used by the prosecution against the other two.

Hi Brian,

Okay, I'm trying to make sense out of this too.

1. If AK and RS take the full trial Rudy is in jeopardy, as some of what they argue may go against him. In this case he'd rather stick with what he has and go for the rito abbreviato.

2. If Rudy's satisfied to take the rito abbreviato, it looks like he's satisfied with the evidence he's given and accepting of the evidence against him. One question I have on this and I apologize if it's been covered. Does it really mean he must plead guilty? Can't he plead not guilty? And the difference is only that his lawyers can't argue the case?

3. If AK and RS take the rito abbreviato, they'll not give any more evidence or argument, so Rudy can start his own regular trial with nothing to lose, as far as evidence is concerned. His lawyers argue his own evidence and AK and RS have nothing more to say about it. But he is taking a risk of spending a good deal more years behind bars if found guilty in a long trial. I wonder if this means his lawyers are fairly confident they can win the case if they don't have to worry about AK and RS? And/or does some of what Damian's been talking about as far as prisoners being released early play a role in this gamble?

Either way it looks like Rudy wants the last word.

Sparrow,

You are active!. Rudy Guede will have the last word. Yes it is true that there is DNA of him in the cottage. But it is areas precisely where he says he was. There is absolutely no evidence of him post-crime. The post-crime evidence points to both Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox explicitly.

The ones who came back to the cottage, both night and day, had the most to lose. They are the ones whose DNA evidence has been thoroughly discussed. The DNA on the bra, the knife, the shoeprint, the latent feet prints etc.

Looking through the veil, this means to me that Rudy Guede will have the last say. And if his statement pans out, then the other two are in a pinch. And I think the lawyers for both Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox know this. Rudy Guede is the key to solving this murder precisely because he was there on the night that Meredith was murdered. He is the singular, most important witness in all of this. That being said, he is still on the hot seat for his actions in the cottage on that fateful night

http://tinyurl.com/5ku5ly
Corriere dell'Umbria.
This article says that the PM's are expected to ask for the 3 to be sent to trial this morning. (it's now afternoon here) The journalist says that the PM believes all 3 were responsible for Meredith's death. They were 'sballati', high on drugs. They also say that the 'call' made on Meredith's phone to her bank is believed to have been made by one of the three suspects. They say that Meredith was probably already dead at this point.
"For the prosecution, RG is believed to have violated the English student and the other 2 to have killed her."
They say that the preliminary hearing could be held either 16 or 26 September. They also say that RG could go for the rito even if Biscuits denies this.

rob said :
you have not answered my question regarding the lack of bloodied/partially bloodied foot prints leading out of Merediths room. where are they? you have not answered but it is obvious to see in the photos that the tiles had been cleaned after the murder and the blood of the nike prints was diffused because of the floor or shoes being wet with a liquid other than blood.

charlie said:
I'm not sure what your question is, but I am skeptical about the significance of latent footprints in the hallway, which I think Knox created after taking a shower on the day after the murder. But the caveat is that I don't know how to analyze luminol-based images, beyond picking out the obvious shape of bare feet.


charlie i trust you are not being wilfully obtuse. the prints i am talking about are the visible to the naked eye nike prints and the lack of same exiting Merediths room. 5 year old children make play of making, recognising and following footprints in the snow, sand, mud, by the swimming pool etc. maybe their simple games are ruined by their lack of formal training and experience in examining footprints.

quoting the great mac 'you cannot be serious'.

i understand that you cannot address the fundamental question of THE cleanup inside Merediths door because the obviousness of it and the answer to it does not fit with your conspiracy theories.

.

Brian said, "Unless I'm mistaken, I don't yet believe we know with any certainty exactly what each individual will be charged with at trial."

I think we've got a very good idea of what they will be charged with at trial.


Just a word on 'concorso in omicidio volontario'. This is what the PM wants the three charged with and it is extremely probable that he will get his wish. It's also extremely probable that all three will be charged with 'concorso in violenza sessuale'. AK and RS will probably be charged with 'simulazione di reato' and AK with 'calunnia' for the false accusations she made agaisnt Patrick.
'Concorso in omicidio' carries the same sentence as 'omicidio volontario'. In this sense, it doesn't really matter who committed the fatal stabbing. This person would be the 'esecutore materiale' and could have more 'aggrananti', but not necessarily. In fact, in cases in which more that one person is involved in murder, it's usually the 'mandante' who gets the longest sentence, if this can be proved.
Obviously, all 3 suspects, if found guilty, risk 'ergastolo'; life imprisonment.

Hi, damian.

Thanks for the update and link--I did a google translate, which is always a bit confusing. Am I correct in reading that there will be pre-trial in September and that the actual trials will begin in January/February? Is it likely that Amanda and Raffaele will be tried together or separately? And I assume that all three remain in prison until a verdict has been reached for each of them, correct?

Brian said,
"He will (have to) plead guilty at a short trial OR (I assume) not guilty at a full trial.

His plea will effectively depend on decisions made by Raffaele's and Amanda's teams"

Brian, if they were going to confess I think they would have already done it. Maybe they will confess at the trial but I think that would be very odd. It doesn't really make much difference whether they do or not. The only way in which it could alter the length of their sentence, if found guilty, is connected to article 132 of the 'Codice Penale'. This is the one I was talking about the other day. The judge will consider the suspects behaviour 'during and after' the crime. If a suspect convinces the judge that that they are aware of the seriousness of what they did, are sorry for what they did, are not likely to do it again etc, they might get a couple of years knocked off. The judge has this discretionary power when sentencing, along with many others. Clearly, if found guilty of specific crimes, the judge must pass sentence in accordance with the minimum/maximum terms laid out in the law.

damian wrote:http://tinyurl.com/5ku5ly
Corriere dell'Umbria.
This article says:"For the prosecution, [b]RG is believed to have raped the English student[/b] and the other 2 to have killed her."

[font=Times New Roman]Hi Damian. Interesting stuff. I'm a bit confused though about the 'rape' claim. I thought it had been stated it wasn't possible to establish (with any certainty), if rape had taken place or not. Could it be considered 'rape' if there was evidence of sexual activity between Guede and Meredith, but nothing to suggest any type of prior relationship between them, so therefore it was unlikely to be consensual, and so it must be rape?

And if Meredith was already dead by 10.15 after the call to the bank, then whatever the Albanian heard from the house must have been before that time. There would be no noises if all 3 were outside and Meredith was already dead. I said on Halo I thought the call had been made after she died, but I also thought it had been made to try and give the illusion Meredith was still alive at that time. That theory sunk, because I think Skep asked why the murderer would be thinking of something like that when he would have been in a complete panic.

So then why call the bank, to see how much money was in there? To go and withdraw the rest of it? I can't make sense of that either. That's too much pre-planning on the assumption Meredith's body wouldn't be found before the account had been cleared out. And aren't cash points covered by CCTV in Italy?[/font]

a2 wrote:Hi, damian.

Thanks for the update and link--I did a google translate, which is always a bit confusing. Am I correct in reading that there will be pre-trial in September and that the actual trials will begin in January/February? Is it likely that Amanda and Raffaele will be tried together or separately? And I assume that all three remain in prison until a verdict has been reached for each of them, correct?

Ciao A2. Yes, google served you well. They say the preliminary hearing will probably be in September and the trial at the start of next year. If AK and RS opt for the same type of trial they will be tried together. If all three go for the rito, they will all be tried together and the same goes for the full trial. If one goes for the rito and the other two go for the full trial, there will be two seperate trials. The suspects, in all probability, will remain in prison until the verdict. There are however, various time limits between the different phases of the process. If they don't get to the next phase within these limits, there is the possibility of them being let out. This is very improbable though and would probably mean there'd been an enormous mistake or somekind of 'crafty' tactics.
BTW, thanks for the line you translated from CU yesterday...lovely stuff.

Hi Soozie. The word they used was 'violentato', which often means rape but is also a generic term. I messed up the translation. They are talking about 'violenza sessuale'. Sorry, I'll go back and change that.
About the phone, the paper reports that the 'call' could have been made deliberately or accidentally. They say that the police believe one of the three made the call before throwing the phones away.

CP article 609bis. Violenza sessuale.
"Whoever, with violence, threats or an abuse of authority, forces another person to perform or endure sexual acts, is punished with imprisonment for 5-10 years.

Trial requested.

Reuters

But I'm not sure about this line:

Le dinamiche dell'omicidio, avvenuto il 2 novembre scorso, non sono ancora state del tutto chiarite.

Hey, damian--Thank you, thank you for patiently answering all our questions regarding Italy's justice system as it applies to the suspects in this case! You're the best!

Hi, Brian,

But I'm not sure about this line:

Le dinamiche dell'omicidio, avvenuto il 2 novembre scorso, non sono ancora state del tutto chiarite.

Google Translate: The dynamics the murder, which took place on November 2 last year, have not yet been fully clarified.

Brian S. wrote:More on Walter Biscotti's strategy:

Each set of lawyers has now seen all the evidence against their clients.

Each set of lawyers must now know what charges to expect against their clients.

If what Frank reports about Walter's strategy is true:

He will (have to) plead guilty at a short trial OR (I assume) not guilty at a full trial.

His plea will effectively depend on decisions made by Raffaele's and Amanda's teams.

If Rudy is charged with murder and Raffaele and Amanda opt for a full trial, Walter has effectively made Rudy an admitted murderer. I don't see him placing that choice in the hands of others. If Rudy was going to plead guilty to murder and take the opportunity of a reduced sentence, surely he would do that independently of the choices made by the other two.

Or would he?

If Raffaele and Amanda plead guilty at a short trial, Rudy may stand a better chance with a not guilty plea at a full trial since he has taken care to separate himself from the other two and they will have already pleaded guilty to the murder.

Whatever charge is eventually laid against Rudy, I do think his evidence will be used by the prosecution against the other two.

The ball is now in their court.

They will both be charged with murder and they now know the evidence they have against them, which brings me to Raffaele's renewed courtship of Amanda.

If it was Amanda who struck the death blow why would Raffaele want to draw her closer.

If it was Raffaele who struck the death blow I can fully understand why.

I don't think the prosecution are able to put a knife in Rudy's hands and neither can Raffaele or Amanda without admitting their presence.

ISTM the ball is now in Amanda's court and it's her and her team we haven't heard from in the last few weeks. I wonder what they make of the statements of Rudy and the Albanian and all the other evidence they are now privy to?

Will Amanda respond to, or reject Raffaele's advances? I think it's about time she made a sensible decision.

Hey Brian,

This is exactly what I mean about a chess match. Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out and give us talking points.

If I were Amanda's mom let's say and it was clear to me my daughter was part of a sexual/rape prank that went terribly wrong or an accusation of taking money turned into a fight ending in murder and I could definitively say with a clear and moral conscience my daughter DID NOT strike the final death blow I would NOT align our team with Raffaele's. NO WAY NO HOW. I would fight tooth and nail if my daughter said Raffaele lost it. I would encourage my daughter's defense team to defend Amanda for her actions only. Take responsibility for the drug induced stupidity but not responsibility for Raffaele's psychotic break.

Now if it was clear to me Amanda dealt the final blow I would go for the brief trial, suffer the consequence and begin a new reality for my family.

Rudy's DNA presence in Meredith really is the most confusing issue to me. It truly appears at least to me that this was some sort of rape fantasy. I can't explain it any other way. Was murder on their mind from the beginning? Oh, this is so horrific when I think about it. If they were in disguise and they thought they could pull it off my mind can take it, if not I honestly cannot fathom ALL three had murder as part of the original hatched plan. Did one of them snap?

indie wrote:Did one of them snap?

This is what I have always thought.

It's why I have always fancied Raffaele as the one who lost it and dealt the death blow.

For various reasons I have laid out before, some of which are obvious and some less so, he had most to lose from an assault and prank which had gone too far.

Rudy would have risked some jail time for a sexual assault.

Amanda would have been associated with this and maybe charged with aiding him or just thrown out of the country.

But Raffaele had everything to loose, reputation, family name and career.

MSNBC NEWS just reported in a brief Breaking News clip:

All three have been indicted for murdering Meredith Kercher.

First report I have seen on American television.

http://www.nbc11news.com/internationaln ... 62839.html

looks like there are many many many more pages of my prison' then we originally were led to believe. gotta love true investigative journalism to really get the facts out in the open, especially sexy pose ones.

.

[font=Times New Roman]10,000 pages?? Whaaaat? Is that a misprint? I thought that was the number of pages Mignini handed in.[/font]

MSNBC: Accused Killer's Diary Made Public - all 10,000 pages

From what I gather all three will be charge with murder for trivial reasons and all for sexual violence. AK/RS for cover-up, and slander for Amanda.

http://www.ansa.it/opencms/export/site/ ... 11377.html

Soozie wrote:

10,000 pages?? Whaaaat? Is that a misprint? I thought that was the number of pages Mignini handed in.

Maybe this is their sly way of suggesting that Mignini wrote the diary or forced AK to write it. You know, part of the theory that he is the evil mastermind behind this whole thing.

Brian wrote:

But Raffaele had everything to lose, reputation, family name and career.

I can't help but think of his written reaction when the Ivoirian was apprehended (Papa is smiling but I am afraid he will invent strange things). This to me is one of the most bizarre and puzzling elements to emerge from the couple hundred pages (or, if the news is correct, thousands) written by the three suspects. It doesn't prove anything, of course. But I maintain this is not the reaction one would expect of someone who had nothing to do with these tragic and brutal events.

skeptical bystander wrote:Soozie wrote:

10,000 pages?? Whaaaat? Is that a misprint? I thought that was the number of pages Mignini handed in.

Maybe this is their sly way of suggesting that Mignini wrote the diary or forced AK to write it. You know, part of the theory that he is the evil mastermind behind this whole thing.

[font=Times New Roman]It's a bit of a coincidence if her diary and the investigative bundle both contain 10,000 pages.

I know the Daily Mail should be taken with a pinch of salt, but to say they'd read the 'entire' 80 pages is laughable, if there were 10,000 [/font]

Sollecito’s lawyer Marco Brusco said:”We knew this would happen although we had hoped that the prosecutor would make further investigations.
We especially wanted him to focus on CCTV footage from the car park opposite the house where poor Meredith was murdered as this is vital.
However this ws not the case so we shall make a formal request at the preliminary hearing in September.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... arges.html

When does she have time to do all those crunches and hang from the bars to simulate rock-climbing with a diary that size? msnbc screwed up their headline. Doesn't anyone proofread anymore? (at CBS or other news sources, I mean)

Maybe I missed something or just don't get it but these CCTV images Raffaele's lawyers want to see...

Is the prosecution allowed to enter them as evidence in the 10,000 page file but not have a copy or description of what is on them?

Does this camera location show only one part of the house? Is there a different way of getting in that isn't shown by this camera?

Raffaele's lawyers have to believe this will help their client, or at least not hurt him in any way (as Damian has suggested. At least, I think it was you, D) . It's curious then to me why Amanda's lawyers haven't asked for this same information, since the latest story is that they were together.

The lawyers, who must know what is or isn't on the footage, are hoping to discredit Mignini.

If there's anything on the footage which tallies with what RS said at any of his various interviews about the time that he and or AK went to the cottage, then they will accuse Mignini of suppressing evidence that is in their client's favour.

Simple as that. And it will further delay things. And defence lawyers who think their clients may be guilty always go for delays and technicalities. It's what they're paid for, and what makes them famous and in demand by other guilty clients...

Minotaur

Sollecito’s lawyer Marco Brusco said:”We knew this would happen although we had hoped that the prosecutor would make further investigations.

”We especially wanted him to focus on CCTV footage from the car park opposite the house where poor Meredith was murdered as this is vital.

”However this ws not the case so we shall make a formal request at the preliminary hearing in September.”

RS lawyers clearly feel that they have some excupatory evidence in the CCTV footage. I wonder if they waited till the last minute to request this footage be to amplify the "bombshell" effect they seem to hope it will have on the prosecutions case. Certainly Magnini is aware of what is in this footage. Hmmmm. Indie, the chess game continues.

”We especially wanted him to focus on CCTV footage from the car park opposite the house where poor Meredith was murdered as this is vital."

Does anyone else find it repugnant when the defense refers to "poor Meredith"? There is a certain irony and insincerity that I find a little sickening.

Well, that's what I'm thinking. Mignini has to know. So what if this camera shows two people entering, except one of them isn't Raffaele. That's why I was curious as to whether or not there is another entrance that a third party could enter or exit from.

a2 wrote:Does anyone else find it repugnant when the defense refers to "poor Meredith"?

Me; and not only when the defence does it.

Corrina,

IMHO, the reason why the lawyers wish to see the CCTV images of times surrounding the murders is to see if any other strange people had shown up at or appeared near the cottage. One could say that others might have been involved in order to sow reasonable doubt. In other words, the Police did not do their job in looking at all the possibilities surrounding this crime. This is a common tactic used by lawyers.

Such as if any passerby popped in to flush the shit down the bog? The door was open, after all.

"Such as if any passerby popped in to flush the shit down the bog? The door was open, after all."

You needn't worry too much. Justice is appropriately, just around the corner for any person(s) involved in the senseless, brutal, purposeless slaughter of Meredith Kercher.

rob wrote:http://www.nbc11news.com/internationalnews/headlines/22762839.html
looks like there are many many many more pages of my prison' then we originally were led to believe. gotta love true investigative journalism to really get the facts out in the open, especially sexy pose ones.

This link goes to a small local NBC affiliate in Grand Junction, Colorado. They obiously took some liberties with reports they found on MSNBC - the Knox diary was not 10,000 pages.

indie wrote:MSNBC NEWS just reported in a brief Breaking News clip:
All three have been indicted for murdering Meredith Kercher.
First report I have seen on American television.

It's being reported widely now - even in the Seattle press. Everyone seems to be recyling the same Associate Press report. So, will there be no condemning statements issued from families saying they are confident that the judge will throw out all of these impossibly fantastic trumped up charges?

bpcl wrote:The flowers given by Raffaele Sollecito represent a white flag; better start working together now that the heat is on.

This might be true - I'm thinking the message being sent is: "Hey Luv, sure looks like we're toast on this one, but it was great while it lasted wasn't it? Say, do you mind if we keep it going just awhile longer on the chance that the Italian judicial system will collapse, setting us free?"

FBN wrote:

"Hey Luv, sure looks like we're toast on this one, but it was great while it lasted wasn't it? Say, do you mind if we keep it going just awhile longer on the chance that the Italian judicial system will collapse, setting us free?"

Incidentally, and being an Islander you might be able to confirm this, but I found a website promoting the Hawaiian flower industry which states:

Get off a Hilo or Kona flight, and chances are you'll see people carrying armloads of ruby-red anthuriums, arguably the signature flower of the Big Island.No wonder. No other place in the United States grows more of the heart-shaped flower that reminds people of Valentine's Day year round.