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IIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 5 - Oct 2

This forum is for anyone who wishes to discuss the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy in November, 2007.

Moderators: skeptical bystander, Michael

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:16 pm

Surely there is another camera angle with a clearer (albeit grainy) image of the person in white? I can't help feeling there are other videos that haven't been leaked because they won't help the cases of certain individuals any. Regardless of *who* leaked this one, we know they didn't do it for Meredith's benefit but to try and save their own guilty asses.

Unless Meredith was wearing a looooooong white jacket, I'm inclined to think that person isn't her, if we are correct that she was wearing blue jeans when she left Sophie's.

Since nobody seems to be talking about Nicki's post, I will, while we all patiently wait for a full translation... :D What to make of these other witnesses that Maresca speaks of?
Last edited by Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suspect Movements

Postby Jumpy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:18 pm

Fly by Night wrote:
So - I'm left thinking the white spot is most likely Amanda - perhaps she even got out of the car driven by the "drug dealer" that Guede reported - Raffaele? Apparently others are thinking this same thing. This would put all 3 of them in the vicinity of the cottage, but did Raffaele then go back home for a bit, or go stash the car, or what? Were their movements and methods perfomed specifically to avoid being spotted by anyone? As mentioned, the camera clock may not be so precise. All along, it has been impossible to shake the perception that something evil was up that night among each of these three suspects; something that none of the bastards are yet willing to talk about.


Now what if in his roundabout half-truth way Rudy is speaking of the Albanian when he references the car. His calling him a "drug dealer" could also cover his run in near the cottage? In the way Amanda tries to involve other people Rudy does the same. Cast the blame. He could be taking a shot at Raffaele or he could be taking a shot at a potential witness to cover his tracks.
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Sollecito's call for help.

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:45 pm

I have a question about RS's call to the police that is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMw0iAOysLs

Are all those voices in the background where RS is at the cottage? Or are they at the police station? What are they saying? He sounds rather calm, while the others sound a bit frantic? It's hard to tell when I can't understand Italian! Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Also, in regards to the new post over at the Shock, is he saying that they have phone records of HK showing he was "in Assisi" so he couldn't be by the cottage? Is Assisi a town? What does this mean? Here's the quote:

We can't say too much about the white figure, read as being Meredith thanks to a mere almost-coincidence of time and space, but I think we can exclude the guy going out of the garage to be Rudy Guede. He has maybe similar jacket and shoes but, for the little we can see, even totally different features. The only certain element of this video is that it proofs that no rain fell that evening while the albanian witness maintains that it was raining like hell (old stuff for us here, we've been reasoning about that two articles ago). Will this be enough to deny him at Friday's hearing? Probably. [font=Arial Black]But other elements of denial are about to be served, as, for instance, some phone printouts showing him to be in Assisi at times that could make him difficult to have been in via della Pergola in the evening[/font].
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Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:54 pm

Tara wrote:Also, in regards to the new post over at the Shock, is he saying that they have phone records of HK showing he was "in Assisi" so he couldn't be by the cottage? Is Assisi a town? What does this mean? Here's the quote:
We can't say too much about the white figure, read as being Meredith thanks to a mere almost-coincidence of time and space, but I think we can exclude the guy going out of the garage to be Rudy Guede. He has maybe similar jacket and shoes but, for the little we can see, even totally different features. The only certain element of this video is that it proofs that no rain fell that evening while the albanian witness maintains that it was raining like hell (old stuff for us here, we've been reasoning about that two articles ago). Will this be enough to deny him at Friday's hearing? Probably. But other elements of denial are about to be served, as, for instance, some phone printouts showing him to be in Assisi at times that could make him difficult to have been in via della Pergola in the evening


Tara,

Assisi is a small town some 10, maybe 15 miles out of Perugia.

I seem to remember it as Kokomani's home town.
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Re: Suspect Movements

Postby Fly by Night on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:55 pm

Jumpy wrote:Now what if in his roundabout half-truth way Rudy is speaking of the Albanian when he references the car. His calling him a "drug dealer" could also cover his run in near the cottage? In the way Amanda tries to involve other people Rudy does the same. Cast the blame. He could be taking a shot at Raffaele or he could be taking a shot at a potential witness to cover his tracks.


This, also, could be the case. So Rudy's trial begins tomorrow, right? And the continuing arguments regarding sending the other two to trial as well? It's gonna be a big weekend for the press writers - probably a few shockers along the way.
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Assisi

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:59 pm

Thanks Brian. So if it was a land line, anyone could have been on the phone I suppose. But if it's his personal cell phone, that could present some questions? Do most people in the area have both a land line and a cell phone?
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Re: Signora Nara's Flat

Postby Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:29 pm

Kermit wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Kermit wrote:Ref. 1) look closely at my collage posted earlier. The upper right image shows that the real "window" of Nara's bathroom only occupies some of the lattice-work iron frames. The others are for decoration, ie. there's no window underneath.


Can you post a link here to that collage you mention? (I'll be back tonight.)


It's from earlier today, my post at: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Signora Nara's Flat


Well done Kermit. Number 16. So I continue to think Nara is a credible witness. She could see and hear a lot from there.

I guess you enhanced the screen capture of the window at night to throw up show the mock front there.

I have done the same, and enhanced my own shots, and the mock front does show up, even in daylight.

I'll post them later on YJMK.

Maybe the glass was there first, and the bricks came later, when everyone noticed it is a bathroom!
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Postby Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:36 pm

Brian S. wrote:Assisi is a small town some 10, maybe 15 miles out of Perugia.

I seem to remember it as Kokomani's home town.


It's 20 minutes drive, perhaps less. There is an autostrada that passes near Assissi.

I've always suspected that Koko now lives somewhere near the girls' house.

Didnt he park by the dumpsters? I'm trying to think why he would be there, otherwise.

I have shots of a blue VW Golf parked right there at several different times.

Koko's? Who knows? (Except Koko!)
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RS print on wall

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:37 pm

Here's a Google translation of a recent report. It appears they have evidence of Sollecito's "footprint" (I'm assuming handprint or fingerprint) on a wall in Meredith's room? I hadn't heard that before...

Six points for the charges against him - the knife found the murder weapon was found in the house where lived in Perugia - the footprint found on the wall of the bedroom of Meredith, the footprint found on refrigerator of the house in via della Pergola, the place of the crime - traces of the genetic profile found to urge the bra of Meredith - the imprint of the shoe found in the room next to that of the victim, considered compatible with that of Raphael -- the story of an alleged witness who saw him with Amanda and Rudy, on the evening of murder, near the house.


http://tinyurl.com/4sb63l

Is this a reliable source?
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Re: RS print on wall

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:42 pm

Tara wrote:
Is this a reliable source?


Don't know; Damian, does it have tits and cats up trees? (Haloscan humor, sorry) If so, it places Raffaele inside the murder room.

Thanks for posting this, Tara!
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Re: Suspect Movements

Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:46 pm

Fly by Night wrote:
Brian S. wrote:From Perugia Shock:
Studio Aperto aired today some frames of the garage video showing at about 8.31 a guy going out of the garage and at 8.41 a 'white spot' going towards the house. Someone interpreted the guy as Rudy and the white spot as Meredith. Someone else even 'saw' the white spot going out of a car...But the two figures are totally unrecognizable.

Meredith arriving home at 8:41 seems a little to early even for me.


So - I'm left thinking the white spot is most likely Amanda - perhaps she even got out of the car driven by the "drug dealer" that Guede reported - Raffaele? Apparently others are thinking this same thing. This would put all 3 of them in the vicinity of the cottage, but did Raffaele then go back home for a bit, or go stash the car, or what? Were their movements and methods perfomed specifically to avoid being spotted by anyone? As mentioned, the camera clock may not be so precise. All along, it has been impossible to shake the perception that something evil was up that night among each of these three suspects; something that none of the bastards are yet willing to talk about.


There is a problem with it being Amanda if the camera time given by Frank and our timeline are both accurate.

From the timeline:

2040** Young woman, Popovic (Polish after all (?)), arrives at RS's house to tell him she no longer needed a lift to the station. (She spoke to Amanda via the intercom (?) )
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Re: Directory assistance, Italian style

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:52 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Pete wrote:

By the way, is Nara in the Perugia White Pages?


I started to look the other day and did not get far. If anyone with more experience in Telecom Italia matters is on board (Damian? Nicki? Middie?), please check.


www.paginebianche.it
(phone directory)

I checked and there is nobody in Perugia with that last name.Is Nara her maiden name? Italians always keep their maiden name after marriage but perhaps if she is married the phone is under her husband's last name (or unlisted)
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Nara

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:58 pm

Nicki wrote:

I checked and there is nobody in Perugia with that last name.Is Nara her maiden name? Italians always keep their maiden name after marriage but perhaps if she is married the phone is under her husband's last name (or unlisted)


Nara is her first name. Her last name is Cappezalli I think.
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Hey Nicki

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:06 pm

Nicki,

Did you see Tara's post? Any word on whether this is a reliable source of news or not?
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Re: Directory assistance, Italian style

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:10 pm

nicki wrote:www.paginebianche.it
(phone directory)

I checked and there is nobody in Perugia with that last name.Is Nara her maiden name? Italians always keep their maiden name after marriage but perhaps if she is married the phone is under her husband's last name (or unlisted)


Hi Nicki,

I just watched the 48 hours segment again. The narrator said her name like this:

Nara "Cop its ellie" - however that may be spelled "Italian Style"! :)
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Postby Bluetit on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:16 pm

From The Times (Richard Owen) :

TITLE :
CCTV footage shown of 'Meredith Kercher' before murder

Italian television has broadcast grainy images from a security camera purporting to show Meredith Kercher, the British student murdered in Perugia nearly a year ago, arriving home shortly before the murder, followed by Rudy Guede, the African immigrant accused of taking part in the killing.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 824734.ece

So Richard Owen agrees with you, DLW : he understands the alleged "Rudy picture" to have been shot after the alleged "Meredith picture". Strange, that others believe the reverse to be true.
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Re: Nara

Postby Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:18 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Nicki wrote:

I checked and there is nobody in Perugia with that last name.Is Nara her maiden name? Italians always keep their maiden name after marriage but perhaps if she is married the phone is under her husband's last name (or unlisted)


Nara is her first name. Her last name is Cappezalli I think.


Almost. Spelled Nara Capezzali.
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Re: Nicki's post

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:58 pm

Corrina wrote:
nicki wrote:Interesting interview to Maresca, from Affari Italiani
http://tinyurl.com/4jjvo8

Will try to provide a translation tomorrow if someone doesn't do it before. Very briefly, Maresca -who has read all of the Scientific police reports- says:
-He believes all three are guilty of murdering Meredith
-It took Meredith about 10 minutes to die so she coud have been saved
-Besides Kokomani, there are other witnesses saying the three knew each other
-The main motive was sexual and the money theft was associated to the crime and not the reason for it

He says he saw Rudy and Amanda in court and it was so clear that they were lying from looking at their faces ( ce l'hanno scritto in faccia)


There also an interview to Biscotti but he is singing the same song: Rudy is innocent, he had sex with the consenting victim, he was in the bathroom for 12 minutes while the other two killed Meredith, and he is asking his client to be acquitted.


Thanks for this, Nicki, and for providing what you were able to while you were able to! Mr. Maresca has said some pretty damning things there although pretty much what he has been saying all along, just a bit more vehemently. Considering what the family of Meredith has lost, I'm willing to take his word. The Kercher Family want the responsible parties brought to justice for murdering their daughter and sister.

I look forward to one of our wonderful and thoughtful translators giving us the rest of this, or Nicki when she has more free time to be our filter. We're blessed, people.


Thanks Corrina for noticing :)
I'm posting the translation of part 1 below (oart two will follow later) . I thought it could be interesting, but I guess most people have been involved in discussions of a different nature these days...)

Maresca is a calm and well balanced man and the fact that he is using such strong words after having read the file and attended the hearing speaks volumes to me.

Two day after the preliminary hearing, Affari Italiani.it has interviewed Francesco Maresca, lawyer of the Kercher family, who was present. They are all guilty -the attorney says-Three murderers. The young lady could have been saved. What they are claiming is totally false.

THE INTERVIEW

[font=Arial]Q: are you satisfied of the judge decision to grantthe right to become civil plaintiffs?
A: It was our right. It was quite automatic

Q: Almost one year has passed since Meredith was killed. What do you expect from the judgement that will have to be passed, because othewise the three suspects will have to be released
A We expect justice . Surely the truth and a guilty sentence for Rudy in the fast track trial and the trial for the other two


Q: So according to you the suspects are all three guilty ? Quindi secondo lei i tre imputati sono tutti colpevoli...
A Absolutely, all three. All three together. All three participating in a balanced and consisting manner to the different phases of the murder" There is no specific divisin of roles in those moments, because they the three were together.The Scientific police report states that the body of Meredith probably hasn't been moved, but rather it's more probable that the wounded girl managed to move to cry for help., Therefore she could have been saved. But everything go against the reconstruction done by the accused. Especially Guede's. We have read the report and believe this is the truth. There is no doubt that Meredith could have been saved regardless of the body position. Infact the experts have estimates the pre-death suffering of the girl around 10 minutes. It is irrelevant if she was kneeling or laying down. She survived 10 minutes after she was wounded. For this reason she could have been saved. Guede says that he tried to stop the blood. If instead of trying he'd call an ambulance the girl could have been saved. Perhaps it wassn't his intention to save her. The presence of the Albanian witness who has declared he saw the three in front of the murder house , has cleared things a bit. It is understood that the three knew each other, differently from what Sollecito says. We believe the witness, regardless of what the defense says, the Albanian is not the only witness who says that the three knew each other

Q: That is?
A: That is Kokomani says that they were together the night of the murder or the night before -on this there is some confusion-but it is believed to be an important element to verufy that they knew each other. But he is not the only witness proving it. There are more elements of proof that they knew each other. Because they mixed with the same group of people, particularly the boys downstairs, and because they have been seen together at the disco. So independently of what the Albanian says there is no doubt the three knew each other. Including Guede and Sollecito. If they were getting together on a regular base is a different thing, but that they knew each other is sure. "[/font]
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NARA CAPEZZALI

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:06 pm

Yes, she is on the white pages: Nara Capezzali, Via del Melo, PG. The phone is listed
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Re: Nicki's post

Postby The Machine on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:07 pm

nicki wrote:
Corrina wrote:
nicki wrote:[size=18]A: That is Kokomani says that they were together the night of the murder or the night before -on this there is some confusion-but it is believed to be an important element to verufy that they knew each other. But he is not the only witness proving it. There are more elements of proof that they knew each other. Because they mixed with the same group of people, particularly the boys downstairs, and because they have been seen together at the disco. So independently of what the Albanian says there is no doubt the three knew each other. Including Guede and Sollecito. If they were getting together on a regular base is a different thing, but that they knew each other is sure. "[/font]


I was sure that other people had seen them together. Another one of the IW's tenuous theories bites the dust.
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Oh Nicki You're So Fine

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:09 pm

Thanks for translating that first part for us, Nicki, and especially for Meredith.

I agree with your assessment of Mr. Maresca; I'm glad such a man is representing Meredith's Family.

The article that Tara mentioned earlier, asking if it was a reliable source. Do you know of it, Nicki?
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Re: RS print on wall

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:11 pm

Tara wrote:Here's a Google translation of a recent report. It appears they have evidence of Sollecito's "footprint" (I'm assuming handprint or fingerprint) on a wall in Meredith's room? I hadn't heard that before...

Six points for the charges against him - the knife found the murder weapon was found in the house where lived in Perugia - the footprint found on the wall of the bedroom of Meredith, the footprint found on refrigerator of the house in via della Pergola, the place of the crime - traces of the genetic profile found to urge the bra of Meredith - the imprint of the shoe found in the room next to that of the victim, considered compatible with that of Raphael -- the story of an alleged witness who saw him with Amanda and Rudy, on the evening of murder, near the house.


http://tinyurl.com/4sb63l

Is this a reliable source?


Virgilio is a web portal Tara,they are usually reliable, but they get news from the press so perhaps they could have got something wrong. I don't recall reading anywhere else about a print on the wall being Raffaele's.
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Typo

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:15 pm

Nicki wrote:

Virgilio is a web portal Tara,they are usually reliable, but they get news from the press so perhaps they could have got something wrong. I don't recall reading anywhere else about a print on the wall being Raffaele's.


Could it be simply a typo? Doesn't it also say a footprint on the refrigerator? Maybe that's what google or babelfish does for the Italian word for "print." One of the limitations of translation software is that it is binary--for each term in the source language (original), one term is chosen in the target language (your language). Only that term is ever offered. It makes for some strange translation and is one reason I am not worried about being out of a job.
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Postby nekodesu on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:21 pm

http://www.corriere.it/ultima_ora/notiz ... BF1A766%7d

Omicidio Meredith: audio Tg5, Raffaele chiede di Amanda
25 set 21:35 Cronache

ROMA - Nella sua edizione delle 20 il Tg5 ha mandato in onda l'audio di un'intercettazione ambientale che riguarda Raffaele Sollecito, uno dei 3 indagati per l'omicidio della studentessa britannica Meredith Kercher. Il ragazzo, all'epoca della registrazione in carcere gia' da 5 mesi, chiede al padre di Amanda Knox, la sua ex fidanzata americana, accusata anche lei del delitto. "Ho il desiderio di sapere come sta - dice Sollecito - ho dei rimorsi di coscienza, mi sento male". Il padre allora lo rassicura: "Contro di lei non hanno niente - dice - il rimorso non deve esistere". (Agr)

Google translation:
In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist
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Where Am I?

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:22 pm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you, yet again, Nicki. It will be interesting to hear if this print in MEREDITH'S room is really (urge) Sollecito's. Also, that Maresca is speaking in such definite terms about the three of them knowing each other. That says a lot.
Last edited by Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suspect Movements

Postby Fly by Night on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:22 pm

Brian S. wrote:There is a problem with it being Amanda if the camera time given by Frank and our timeline are both accurate.
From the timeline:
2040** Young woman, Popovic (Polish after all (?)), arrives at RS's house to tell him she no longer needed a lift to the station. (She spoke to Amanda via the intercom (?) )


You make a good point. However, nobody thinks the camera clock is very reliable. And after reading Niki's translation of the Kercher family/lawyer interview saying that they have reviewed the evidence and remain convinced that all 3 suspects were present and participated in the murder of their daughter we have to consider circumstances in which all 3 could have arrived at the cottage.
The Albanian? I'm not aware of any reports saying that the Albanian was a drug dealer. The police wanted to talk to him about a domestic violence claim, but not drug dealing. So now, I'm thinking this could be it: Rudy arrives by foot via a backstreet - Raffaele discretely drops Amanda off by car - and finally, Raffaele returns in his "disguise". This could be how it came to be - I think there is a possibility.
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Postby DeathFish 2000 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:25 pm

Thanks for posting nicki,
I kind of got that impression from the google translation but wasn't quite sure.

It's known Guede had visited the boys downstairs and of course Knox too (as there are boys there) but for one or all of the boys to state to police that all three had been seen together at a disco, certainly changes what we know so far.

It would be interesting what the murder suspect's apologists have to counter this with, (they'll probably say it's all lies and unproven) as now the lie that they didn't know each other can now be exposed for what it is - a lie - and yet another lie among many in the ludicrous fabrication they stated to the police.
I hope they nail this truth very firmly to the courtroom table.
Justice for Meredith.
R.I.P.
Meredith Kercher
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Postby The Machine on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:26 pm

I've just read Franks latest post which includes the following lines:

"And the sexual violence, if there has been any, can't be demonstrated. As we have seen, indeed, the traces on Meredith are compatible with a consensual activity.

I would hardly call three slash wounds, with one of them being fatal, on Meredith's neck as being compataible with consensual activity. Not to mention Rudy's and Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's cut bra. Frank's comments are possibly the most offensive comments I've read about the case.
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Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:31 pm

The Machine,

Grrrrr. And what about the bruises to her thighs? And on her face? I can't speak for everyone but when I have consensual sex, I don't (usually :shock: ) wind up with bruises and I'm fair and bruise very easily.
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Too late

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:32 pm

Corinna wrote:

I don't think anything should be deleted; if we want that, we know where to go, don't we? Can we please open a new thread, specifically for the issue that seems to be our current distraction from the murder of Meredith Kercher.


I hear you, but it's too late. I've been deleting. It is so important to get back to what's important. That whole conversation is off-topic and comes way too late. Let me know when you have read this and I will delete it.

In fact, as adminstrator I reserve the right to delete any post for any reason. I hate to do it and almost never do. But there is a good reason to get rid of the whole series of posts. They try the patience of so many people who have participated in and supported this endeavor.

The small group of people (I don't know how many) posting on this whole blog issue have not contributed to the discussion of Meredith's death since they got derailed, except for Damian. I am sorry if Damian is put out and/or worked up, but we need to move on. I sent him a PM when he left us for the second time and was willing to talk about whatever was bugging him. No answer. I don't think I would be doing anyone any favors by chasing people who disappear. I hope Damian stays around. Sparrow has just left after being absent for some time. It is too bad, because I really appreciated Sparrow's wit, sensitivity and insight. Maybe she'll decide to share it with us again.

I'm tired of psychodramas, however.
We all are capable of and deserve better.
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on fire

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:35 pm

The Machine wrote:I've just read Franks latest post which includes the following lines:

"And the sexual violence, if there has been any, can't be demonstrated. As we have seen, indeed, the traces on Meredith are compatible with a consensual activity.

I would hardly call three slash wounds, with one of them being fatal, on Meredith's neck as being compataible with consensual activity. Not to mention Rudy's and Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's cut bra. Frank's comments are possibly the most offensive comments I've read about the case.


Hi TM,

I couldn't agree MORE! When I read this last night, it made me want to spontainiously combust! :shock:
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Re: I edited myself

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:43 pm

Corrina wrote:Oh crap. I wound up editing that rant because I was just falling into the drama too. I would have deleted the whole thing but I did want to thank Nicki for her information and keeping the discussion where it should be; Meredith.

I still think we should have up a complaint thread, with a picture of Lucy sitting there with her sign and can; 5 cents. But then adjusted for inflation...hell, who knows?


I think we have tried that and it hasn't worked because no one goes there. No complaints? :lol:

Okay, probably not.

I don't know about doing that, though, because it just encourages complainers and OT griping. This case has been going on for a year. We will be on a new but identical board soon for at least a week. I get the feeling those who remain here now want to talk about this case, period.

I have watched people here get into disagreements that are case-related and they always manage to resolve them. It is only when people get personal and off-topic at the same time that things go haywire. A complaint thread is more work than I want.

So if anyone really wants one and wants to take over the task of moderating....
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Maresca Interview PART II

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:43 pm

Q: W.Biscotti , Guede's defense lawyer clims that during the 12 minutes Meredith was killed his client was in the bathroom and he also claims he is able to prove it. Do you believe this scenario? '
A: I don't believe this scenerio. My idea is that he was in the bathroom because either immediately before or-as I believe- after the murder, that is before running away or at the same time, while Amanda was attempting to wash off the blood and they were trying to fix the place , he went to the bathroom because taken over by extreme fear or stress. Otherwise there was no reason to go to that bathroom; if intimacy with Meredith had occurred as he described , he would have used the closest one to the bedroom. But the other bathroom was occuoied by Amanda busy washing and cleaning so he had to use the other one.And then they all run away. Everything happened within 10 minutes. And only the day after the call to the Carabinieri...and Guede 's escape...

Q: We're speaking about the morning after..but before 1 pm the Carabinieri have received Sollecito phone call...
A: Absolutely late. They went home (Sollecito's) , and the morning after they returned to Via della Pergola and didn't call the Police, notwithstanding all the out-of-place elements of a normal routine: the door open, the closed bedrooms, the broken glass and so on. But they only realized it after police intervention...

Q: Meredith's attackers had prepared everything. Even the objects and clothes of the victim left on the bed...What do you think about it?
A: An attempt to throw police off track simulating a theft. Turning Meredith purse inside out and knocking off her things had the purpose to simulate a robbery

Q: According to you what is the real motive?
A. Surely sexual. The money theft has been associated in the course of the crime. But the main motive is sexual.

Q: You have seen Rudy and Amanda. And you have noticed thier change. Do you think they are lying?
A: Both of them are false and posing. Rudy has stamped it on his face. Amanda almost I 'd say. An angel's face...but in reality she is a demon.
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Alright

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:48 pm

But I still wouldn't mind seeing a picture of Lucy sitting at her little stand. I just love how those Peanut kids rest on their elbows like that...

Oooh! Look! Nicki has up Part II.

Everybody:

Aw Nicki you're so fine you're so fine you blow our minds hey Nicki hey Nicki

Somebody help me...
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Hello Daddy

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:49 pm

Nekodesu quoted a google translation:


In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist


What do you make of this? RS called Curt Knox or the other father figure?
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Postby Jools on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:50 pm

Hi All,

Here is a link to (crimeblog.it) some videos from You Tube, regarding the Chanel4 docu Sex, lies and the murder of Meredith Kercher.

You probably have seen them before but since I hadn't seen all of them and you don't need to wait for the download I thought perhaps maybe some of you would be interested to see.

http://tinyurl.com/4qb3hc
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Postby TLC on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:50 pm

oops I spoke too soon on the censorship thing
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Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:53 pm

Don't know what to make of that. Guess that's how Curt and Edda know he's such a nice young man? Couldn't be the other father figure; he said he never talked to him. Or that he did talk to him but didn't know about him. Or something like that. :roll:
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Jools

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:54 pm

Thanks for posting that, Jools.
Last edited by Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:55 pm

Corrina wrote:The Machine,

Grrrrr. And what about the bruises to her thighs? And on her face? I can't speak for everyone but when I have consensual sex, I don't (usually :shock: ) wind up with bruises and I'm fair and bruise very easily.


Double grrrrfrom me Corrina,
Fear and shock do paralize women subjected to sexual attacks.And signs of "rough" intercourse on someone whose throat is eventually slashed do not point to consensual sex. No way.
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Postby nekodesu on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:57 pm

The same story at tgcom: http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/ar ... 8295.shtml
Almeno fino al marzo scorso Raffaele Sollecito, dopo cinque mesi di carcere, era preoccupato per Amanda Knox, la ragazza che con lui è accusata dell'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Lo rivela l'audio di un'intercettazione ambientale di un colloquio in carcere tra Raffaele e suo padre Francesco Sollecito, trasmessa dal Tg5. "Ho il desiderio di sapere come sta", dice tra l'altro Raffaele riferendosi ad Amanda.

Il padre lo rassicura dicendogli, tra l'altro che nei confronti di Amanda gli investigatori "non hanno niente, hanno meno di te. Nei tuoi confronti si sono inventati il Dna sul gancetto. Nei confronti di Amanda - dice - non hanno proprio niente".

"E' difficile spiegare, ho dei rimorsi di coscienza mi sento male", dice ancora Raffaele. Ma il padre lo rassicura ancora: "Il rimorso non deve esistere. Pensavi che era uscita - dice riferendosi ad Amanda nella notte dell'omicidio - poi hai pensato che era sempre con te, poi che era uscita, poi non ricordi".

It was his own father...
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RRROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:59 pm

You said it, Nicki.

The tampon thing, Deathfish. That was a mistranslation from Italian to English. It was tampone, or swab, from doing the examination. Either way, no way was that consensual. Consenting parties don't usually require being murdered to comply. The person who wrote such a thing should be ashamed of himself, though I doubt that is possible.
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Allo Papa

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:59 pm

Nekodesu wrote:

It was his own father...


That makes more sense. I was trying to imagine Raffaele thinking he could call Curt Knox (or Chris Mellas) without arousing suspicion!
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Re: Hello Daddy

Postby Jumpy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:00 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Nekodesu quoted a google translation:


In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist


What do you make of this? RS called Curt Knox or the other father figure?


Not sure but I wonder if this is something else lost in translation? His/hers, just a mixup. I would think this was a conversation between Raffaele and Senor Sollecito, since their phones were tapped. If it is something else I would be very surprised.

Deathfish, Was it considered that the "tampon" has to do with a swab and not actual tampon?
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Postby Jumpy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:01 pm

Wow, I'm slow typing today. Sorry!
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Whose your daddy?

Postby Corrina on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:01 pm

nekodesu,

Thanks for posting that. So Raffaele said that to his OWN father? That makes more sense but looks worse for him, I think, though it's hard with the translation. It looks as though he told his dad he was feeling bad and his dad said don't say that, for you there is no remorse? I'm confused.

Night everybody.
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Re: Hello Daddy

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:04 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Nekodesu quoted a google translation:


In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist


What do you make of this? RS called Curt Knox or the other father figure?


Sollecito was speaking to his Dad. I am trying to find the audio.
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Postby Jools on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:13 pm

Hi Nicki,

Yes I think that RS was talking to his father....very odd conversation, it seems that the father is telling him what to think.

«È difficile spiegare, ho dei rimorsi di coscienza, mi sento male», dice ancora Raffaele. Ma il padre lo rassicura: «Il rimorso non deve esistere. Pensavi che era uscita - dice riferendosi ad Amanda nella notte dell'omicidio - poi hai pensato che era sempre con te, poi che era uscita, poi non ricordi».

http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo.php ... E_INITALIA
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Yes

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Nicki wrote:

And signs of "rough" intercourse on someone whose throat is eventually slashed do not point to consensual sex. No way.


Very important point.
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Re: Hello Daddy

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:41 pm

Jumpy wrote:
skeptical bystander wrote:Nekodesu quoted a google translation:


In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist


What do you make of this? RS called Curt Knox or the other father figure?


Not sure but I wonder if this is something else lost in translation? His/hers, just a mixup. I would think this was a conversation between Raffaele and Senor Sollecito, since their phones were tapped. If it is something else I would be very surprised.

Deathfish, Was it considered that the "tampon" has to do with a swab and not actual tampon?


Yes it was a conversation between Dr Sollecito and his son. I 've listened to it and I wish you all could do the same and understand slimy Dr.S.reassure his kid in such tone: "hey don't worry, you said you thought she was there, and then you said you thought she wasn't...and so? ...and then now you aren't sure if she was there or not ...so what? Remorse?..forget it...reemorse must not exist...by the way they have nothing against her"

Revolting.
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Postby Jumpy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:49 pm

Yes Nicki,
You can see where he gets his lack of soul.

Makes you wonder what drove the mother to suicide.
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Overtime!

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:51 pm

Hi Nicki,

You've been working overtime today, and I know we all really appreciate it!

Did you have a chance to listen to RS's call to the police? Any thoughts?

Here's the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMw0iAOysLs
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Re: Overtime!

Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:18 pm

Tara wrote:Hi Nicki,

You've been working overtime today, and I know we all really appreciate it!

Did you have a chance to listen to RS's call to the police? Any thoughts?

Here's the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMw0iAOysLs


Yes I have Tara, but tomorrow is my day off so I can afford a bit of overtime :wink:

I've listened to the call. Surely he doesn't speak with the tone of voice of someone who has just found blood in the bathroom, a locked room and a missing person in a house that has clearly been burglarized. There is no emotion, no signs of worry whatsoever transpiring.Raffaele is speaking in a monotone, like if he is reciting a piece he has learned by heart. Or at least this is my impression.The background voices are the cops switchboard. Sollecito says : "Good morning there has been a break in in Via della Pergola 7". The policeman who took the call asks : "how do you know someone got inside the house?" Sollecito answers:"there is a broken window, blood in the bathroom, and there's is a mess but nothing is missing. But the door of one of the roomates is locked and she is missing". You can clerly hear a woman voice-Filomena I believe-giving the correct address- guess because he didn't remember it -or was pretending not to-
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Re: Hello Daddy

Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:21 pm

nicki wrote:
Jumpy wrote:
skeptical bystander wrote:Nekodesu quoted a google translation:


In its edition of 20, the Tg5 sent broadcast the audio of an interception that environmental concerns Raffaele urge, one of the 3 suspects for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The boy, at the time of registration already in jail 'by 5 months, asks the father of Amanda Knox, his former American girlfriend, also accused her of murder. "I desire to know how is - I call say - I have remorse of conscience, I feel bad." The father then reassures him: "Against you have nothing - say - the remorse does not exist


What do you make of this? RS called Curt Knox or the other father figure?


Not sure but I wonder if this is something else lost in translation? His/hers, just a mixup. I would think this was a conversation between Raffaele and Senor Sollecito, since their phones were tapped. If it is something else I would be very surprised.

Deathfish, Was it considered that the "tampon" has to do with a swab and not actual tampon?


Yes it was a conversation between Dr Sollecito and his son. I 've listened to it and I wish you all could do the same and understand slimy Dr.S.reassure his kid in such tone: "hey don't worry, you said you thought she was there, and then you said you thought she wasn't...and so? ...and then now you aren't sure if she was there or not ...so what? Remorse?..forget it...reemorse must not exist...by the way they have nothing against her"

Revolting.


With context:

Five months indicates this conversation occurred in the week or so following Rudy's March 26th statement which caused such apoplexy in the Sollecito camp. Papa went on TV to denounce it but he didn't even know what it's contents may have been. Perhaps by this time he and Raffaele were both worried Rudy had said "strange things". Was this the time Raffaele 's team had to make a decision about leaving Amanda's status "blowin in the wind"?

She was still maintaining her line that Raffaele was a liar.

Was this the time when Raffaele decided it might be a good idea to write his ex a friendly letter?

It's also at the time when a face to face to face was first mooted.
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Postby Jools on Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:45 pm

Hi Nicki,
You wrote:
"You can clerly hear a woman voice-Filomena I believe-giving the correct address- guess because he didn't remember it -or was pretending not to-"

I thought the female voice you hear in the background was AK, to me the way she pronounces the Via Pergola sounds foreign (she even sounds like Nodding Edda) and not Italian.
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Postby nicki on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:06 pm

Jools wrote:Hi Nicki,
You wrote:
"You can clerly hear a woman voice-Filomena I believe-giving the correct address- guess because he didn't remember it -or was pretending not to-"

I thought the female voice you hear in the background was AK, to me the way she pronounces the Via Pergola sounds foreign (she even sounds like Nodding Edda) and not Italian.


I 'm not sure Jools, it's hard to tell because the sound is not great and she only say one word. However if it is Knox she has a great accent, one can hardly tell.
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Hard to place

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:18 pm

Brian wrote:

Five months indicates this conversation occurred in the week or so following Rudy's March 26th statement which caused such apoplexy in the Sollecito camp. Papa went on TV to denounce it but he didn't even know what it's contents may have been. Perhaps by this time he and Raffaele were both worried Rudy had said "strange things". Was this the time Raffaele 's team had to make a decision about leaving Amanda's status "blowin in the wind"?


The time frame is critical for understanding this conversation. Hmmm...just after Rudy has spoken to Mignini. It sounds like they're saying that since RS has said A and not A, leaving his options open, he still has time to decide on his truth based on what Rudy has or has not invented.
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Re: Hard to place

Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:53 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Brian wrote:

Five months indicates this conversation occurred in the week or so following Rudy's March 26th statement which caused such apoplexy in the Sollecito camp. Papa went on TV to denounce it but he didn't even know what it's contents may have been. Perhaps by this time he and Raffaele were both worried Rudy had said "strange things". Was this the time Raffaele 's team had to make a decision about leaving Amanda's status "blowin in the wind"?


The time frame is critical for understanding this conversation. Hmmm...just after Rudy has spoken to Mignini. It sounds like they're saying that since RS has said A and not A, leaving his options open, he still has time to decide on his truth based on what Rudy has or has not invented.


and of course:

by the way they have nothing against her

and this would be an important consideration if Raffaele, in the near future, had to make a decision on whether or not he was with Amanda. If he denied her his alibi then in any face to face, Amanda might choose to remind him of exactly where he went with her on that night.
Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nara's Interview with Frank

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:56 pm

Here's a comment by Frank back in the old days of PS. It seems he feels Nara will be a very important and credible witness:

2befrank said...
I've published my interview with Signora Nara and I thought that was enough to explain the value of this witness.
But it seems that I have to add some comments because she looks to me the only reliable witness among the 3.
If I defined her a fake stupid there's a reason. I don't waste a frankism like this.

I was impressed to hear from her this week exactly the same story she told in november.
This woman is not a megalomaniac, she never tried to appear publicly, she has good memory and she tells things particular, detailed, original, bounded to those few, never changing, and in a way that you couldn't predict and you couldn't find on newspapers (assumed that she reads newspapers, which I doubt).

Not only that, she's even able to make fun of PI and to make him buy the story that she wasn't heard.
But talking with her for a while I had clear the impression that she was following a duty they gave her.
They told her not to tell anyone she was heard and that's what she does. Not that stupid, it seems, right?

And her testimony is very important. The Pm told me he knows exactly what happened. So they know who made that scream, who run towards that direction and who to the other. One day they will tell us.

April 16, 2008 5:43 PM


From this blog article:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/ ... truth.html

Nara says she lives on the "ground floor".
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Floored

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:13 pm

Tara wrote:

Nara says she lives on the "ground floor".


I mentioned this last night (or was it the night before?). I was wondering if it wasn't a translation error of sorts. In most of Europe, you have the ground floor, the first floor, the second floor, etc. whereas in the US the ground floor is the first floor. So maybe Frank meant she lives on the first floor (second floor for us). I vaguely remember asking Frank about that.
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Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:22 pm

It becoming easier to understand the months of silence from the Knox defence lawyers.

Their defense strategy didn't rely on Raffaele Sollecito. They had two, and which one they chose to use depended on Raffaele's memory and certain other things.

That's why they haven't been able to talk about it much. Just the odd "no comment".

But I think they've pretty much made their mind up now and I don't think it's good news for her ex.
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Raffaele

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:27 pm

Brian wrote:

That's why they haven't been able to talk about it much. Just the odd "no comment".


And the even odder (more telling) comment about a recently revealed two-page statement that among other things paints RS as a depressive drug user who feels his mother's suicide is all his fault.
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Re: Raffaele

Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:46 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Brian wrote:

That's why they haven't been able to talk about it much. Just the odd "no comment".


And the even odder (more telling) comment about a recently revealed two-page statement that among other things paints RS as a depressive drug user who feels his mother's suicide is all his fault.


Hey Skep,

I've just thought of something else.

The leaked phone call between Papa and Raffaele didn't come from the Sollecito or Guede camps either.

:lol:
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Re: Floored

Postby Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:51 pm

skeptical bystander wrote:Tara wrote:

Nara says she lives on the "ground floor".


I mentioned this last night (or was it the night before?). I was wondering if it wasn't a translation error of sorts. In most of Europe, you have the ground floor, the first floor, the second floor, etc. whereas in the US the ground floor is the first floor. So maybe Frank meant she lives on the first floor (second floor for us). I vaguely remember asking Frank about that.


I agree with Tara. She looks like a GREAT witness.

And Nara's right, Skep. Ground floor. Her entrance is at the back in the ally. They all are. There are no entrances from the parking building deck. In the interview that Kermit translated she gives her address as that ally (Via Del Melo).

You can see the CBS team in that ally talking through the shutters in the video. I have several screen captures of them there if you want me to post them (I'm getting there puff puff!).

Seen from the front, from the parking building level, that is one flight up. If she was further west, she may have been two flights up at the front. The ally slopes up until it meets the stone stairs at the park, whereas the parking building's top deck is level.
Last edited by Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Raffaele

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:58 pm

Brian S. wrote:
skeptical bystander wrote:Brian wrote:

That's why they haven't been able to talk about it much. Just the odd "no comment".


And the even odder (more telling) comment about a recently revealed two-page statement that among other things paints RS as a depressive drug user who feels his mother's suicide is all his fault.


Hey Skep,

I've just thought of something else.

The leaked phone call between Papa and Raffaele didn't come from the Sollecito or Guede camps either.

:lol:


Ha! Certainly not from the smiling team anyway. I think it is fair to say that all leaks at this point are coming from various defense teams. The prosecutors and police would already have leaked this stuff if they were going to.
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Lightbulb moment!

Postby Tara on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:16 pm

Pete said:

And Nara's right, Skep. Ground floor. Her entrance is at the back in the ally. They all are. There are no entrances from the parking building deck. In the interview that Kermit translated she gives her address as that ally (Via Del Melo).

You can see the CBS team in that ally talking through the shutters in the video. I have several screen captures of them there if you want me to post them (I'm getting there puff puff!).

Seen from the front, from the parking building level, that is one flight up. If she was further west, she may have been two flights up at the front. The ally slopes up until it meets the stone stairs at the park, whereas the parking building's top deck is level.


FINALLY I get it! I must have watched that 48 hours film 10 times, then looked at Kermit's numbered pic 20 times! So she was talking through the wooden shutters to Paul C. and the interpreter behind the buildings (where the entrances are), then they walked around to the front and looked up at the windows opposite the entrance, but facing out towards the cottage. Is that right? And the buildings are built on a slope elevating towards the alley (entrance with wood shutters)?
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Ground floor

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:20 pm

Pete wrote:

And Nara's right, Skep. Ground floor. Her entrance is at the back in the ally. They all are. There are no entrances from the parking building deck. In the interview that Kermit translated she gives her address as that ally (Via Del Melo).


This makes perfect sense. Thanks Pete and Tara for figuring that out.
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Re: Lightbulb moment!

Postby Fast Pete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Tara wrote:FINALLY I get it! I must have watched that 48 hours film 10 times, then looked at Kermit's numbered pic 20 times!

So she was talking through the wooden shutters to Paul C. and the interpreter behind the buildings (where the entrances are), then they walked around to the front and looked up at the windows opposite the entrance, but facing out towards the cottage.

Is that right? And the buildings are built on a slope elevating towards the alley (entrance with wood shutters)?


Correct! It's kinda the back of her house that looks onto the girls' house - and the view - but there you are.

All those houses are built atop a stretch of city wall. The wall is flat, but the ally at back slopes up to the west, the park end.

She must be quite wealthy to afford the rent or mortgage for that place. It is a nice big apartment with a big balcony.

One weirdness though is that it is the bathroom which looks out over the girls' house and toward the view at that side of the "back".

And she has the one smallish window there (being a bathroom) whereas we in NYC would have glass floor to ceiling and a bed with satin sheets right opposite.
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Dame Pipi

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:41 pm

FP wrote:

One weirdness though is that it is the bathroom which looks out over the girls' house and toward the view at that side of the "back".


Interesting, because I believe it was because/when she got up to pee that she heard/saw (or whatever she did) something.
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Postby Brian S. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:56 pm

Jools wrote:Hi All,

Here is a link to (crimeblog.it) some videos from You Tube, regarding the Chanel4 docu Sex, lies and the murder of Meredith Kercher.

You probably have seen them before but since I hadn't seen all of them and you don't need to wait for the download I thought perhaps maybe some of you would be interested to see.

http://tinyurl.com/4qb3hc


Thanks for this link Jools.

It also has a collection of back stories.

And something else.

Scroll down and it has one link under the heading Blog Roll

Click on it and you get a pleasant surprise.

Try the third post down on the link it sends you to.
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Sweet

Postby skeptical bystander on Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:24 pm

Brian wrote:

Scroll down and it has one link under the heading Blog Roll
Click on it and you get a pleasant surprise.
Try the third post down on the link it sends you to.


Wow! Nice. And if you scroll down the page once on the blog, you can savor Steve's post about the anonymous threat from the Chris Mellas IP address.
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Postby Jumpy on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:09 pm

Ha! As far ground and first, second floor! Of course. Looking at the cottage you wouldn't think there was a "boys" apartment downstairs.

You guys are the best!
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CCTV Images

Postby Tara on Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:12 am

A poster at the Shock made an interesting comment about the carpark film. Upon further examination, I'm inclined to agree with his statement that the male in the film is not a black man - instead, he looks like a white guy to me too! This poster said he thinks it's RS...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ0VavpuTnE
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MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Michael on Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:09 am

[font=Comic Sans MS]Hello Everyone,

This is a quick post to let you all know that we have decided to go with my emergency back-up board, Perugia Murder File. It's practically ready to go NOW, at a run, but it requires some last minute work , on estimate some 24 hrs, before it is fully ready to be active. All members here are free to register there 'NOW' if they wish, simply using the same details you used here. It's the same software, a Freeforums PHPBB2 board so you'll know what to do and how to do it. Please don't post there until I've completed the remaining work and have made the announcement for the green light. All members that register there now, do so in lieu of the board rules and policies being put in place. There will be nothing unreasonable or unecessary, but should you find that they contain anything you cannot agree to abide by once they are put in place, simply send me a PM to state that's the case and you wish to opt out and formally withdaw your consent, at which time I'll remove your ID's priviledges. I'm saying this simply because I recognise the 'principle' that members cannot 'formally' agree to Rules and Policies they haven't seen yet. Until they are in place, the Rule set we have in place 'here' is in operation 'there'.

This is just a very brief heads-up. I'm going to get back to work now. I shall make a much more detailed announcement that will ensure you are all 'fully' informed anon.

If anyone wishes to ask me any questions in the interrim, please feel free to send me a PM or e-mail (if you have my addy.)

The Site: Perugia Murder File:

http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org/index.php

Keep the faith...and, nobody need panic...we're covered :)

Michael[/font]
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Winston Churchill
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Because I'm Worth it!

Postby Jools on Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:23 am

Hi All,

The three suspects together in Court but not looking at each other.
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp

:lol:
Sollecito with the L'oreal look.
La Knox opted for the Brooks Brothers look.
Rudy went for the Molto Dimagrito look.
Photo Gallery:
http://tinyurl.com/4kku2t
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Re: Because I'm Worth it!

Postby nicki on Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:32 am

Jools wrote:Hi All,

The three suspects together in Court but not looking at each other.
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp

:lol:
Sollecito with the L'oreal look.
La Knox opted for the Brooks Brothers look.
Rudy went for the Molto Dimagrito look.
Photo Gallery:
http://tinyurl.com/4kku2t


I would like to know why Rudy is the only one handcuffed
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Postby Jools on Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:36 am

Hi Nicki,

Could it be because he is the one that run away to another country?

I'm just guessing.
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Re: Because I'm Worth it!

Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:04 am

Jools wrote:Sollecito with the L'oreal look. La Knox opted for the Brooks Brothers look. Rudy went for the Molto Dimagrito look.


These look pretty definitive. You are very sharp Jools. Now... what does it all tell us?! Guede was predictable. Knox has dulled down.

And Sollecito quite surprises me. Almost a shot at jaunty. He must have a blow drier in his cell, but no hair lacquer.

And I had been thinking he was near the point of caving and going for the short-form trial.

I'll post the AP, Reuters and Getty shots on TJMK mid-morning. I wish I could lead off with the Kercher family but they seem not in sight yet.

I don't know if it was mentioned here, but there's apparently cellphone video of Knox swaying to ghostly music in court on the 16th.

I hate to see mental decay, untreated, in anyone. What are the psychological checks built into this process?

There must be some. Italians are among the most humane people I've ever met. Cosa Nostra excepted of course.
Last edited by Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:12 am

Michael wrote:Keep the faith...and, nobody need panic...we're covered :) Michael


Well done Michael. Stick with it. I hope everybody follows. I'm curious what the work is. You are porting over this very important thread?

If this site goes dark forever, I would hate to lose this thread and the other one here. Will Steve be switching off the haloscans as well?

PS I'm not sure I'm keen on a Meredith site in Halloween colors. Is there a skin changer for those who like the present look?
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Re: Because I'm Worth it!

Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:24 am

nicki wrote:I would like to know why Rudy is the only one handcuffed


Maybe it's a part of his couture? You know, handcuffs optional, but he looks more pathetic? Sheesh. It'll be all over Manhattan by tomorrow...

Nicki are you picking up where they each spent the night? Guede and Sollecito - arent they locked up an hour or two's drive away?
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Re: MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Michael on Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:32 am

Fast Pete wrote:
Michael wrote:Keep the faith...and, nobody need panic...we're covered :) Michael


Panic? Here?! Anyway well done Michael. I'm kinda curious what all the work is. Are you porting over this very important thread?

If this site goes dark forever, I would hate to lose that. Will Steve be switching off the haloscans as well?

PS I'm not sure I'm keen on a Meredith site in Halloween colors. Is there a skin changer for those who like, say, the present look?


[font=Comic Sans MS]No. I can't port over threads. I have no access to the administrator panel here, neither do I have FTP access. The threads I will try and save will each have to be done manually, copied into notepad...perhaps wordpad and and then moved over. I need to go into each post and assign it a number...requires no brain power, but will be laborious and time consuming.

What I 'am' currently doing, is doing all the write ups that will be all the stickies and announcements in each of the individual forums, writing up a Rule Set, a Vision, Guidelines, some How-To's, and 'Summary of Changes' file to explain 'what' things are actually different in that group, testing board settings and tuning them, answering PM's, posting to answer your questions...I'll stop there...but the one thing I won't be doing, is going to bed tonight..and probably not tomorrow night either.

Why would Steve need to switch off the Haloscans?

I'm sorry, which 'Halloween' colours are you referring to? Have they appeared on your site? I'd change it if they have...it doesn't sound healthy. But that's just me ;)

EDIT to ADD: "...hate to lose this thread and the other thread here" (?) One of us has their arithmatic buggered.[/font]
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Winston Churchill
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Re: MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:08 am

Sorry everybody but you understand the urgency and the strain on Michael here.

Michael wrote:No. I can't port over threads. I have no access to the administrator panel here, neither do I have FTP access. The threads I will try and save will each have to be done manually, copied into notepad...


Michael, quicker (one hour's work) and maybe better way to go might be to "save" each of the 70 pages of this thread via the File menu of your browser into a new folder.

You will end up with 70 links and 70 little packages of material. The packages can be put on your new server (perhaps you have FTP access there?) and the links then posted on a housekeeping thread on your new site. Look would be the same as now.

Michael wrote:Why would Steve need to switch off the Haloscans?


Not need to, but maybe to make his point?

Michael wrote:I'm sorry, which 'Halloween' colours are you referring to? Have they appeared on your site? I'd change it if they have...it doesn't sound healthy. But that's just me ;)


I'm seeing white text on black (sorta okay) with, ah, blood-red links.

Michael wrote:"...hate to lose this thread and the other thread here" One of us has their arithmetic buggered.


Oh! I see there are actually two others. Main Discussion 2 May and Main Discussion 29 May. Sorree. More work for you.

Suggestion here. If you want to go the "save" route I described above? Ask several of us to each save one of those threads. I'll take the shortest (just kidding!)

Do you have a way in your controls of varying the number of posts per page? (you are set at 50 posts per page now.)

If yes, could you set that number to the very max? Like 100 posts per page? That halves the number of pages to be "saved".

If not, please email the FreeForums owners to adjust it? They almost certainly will, as you are sticking with them for the new site.

********

Added: A quick estimate here - at 50 per page, there are 5000 or so comments on the three threads.
Last edited by Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby DeathFish 2000 on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:10 am

Fast Pete,
Here is the video of Knox in court.
It was originally posted by Jools last Sunday:

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TO52Q2dXVIU
R.I.P.
Meredith Kercher
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More doubt thrown on the car park CCTV

Postby Brian S. on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:10 am

Sauce on the Source:


An investigative source played down security video footage aired on Italian television this week purportedly showing Kercher and Guede arriving at the house on November 1. "This video has no value," said the source. "The figure supposed to be Meredith is wearing white, while she was dressed in dark clothes that night, and the timing does not coincide with the evidence given by the English students, who were the last to see her."





The Guardian
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Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:17 am

DeathFish 2000 wrote:Here is the video of Knox in court.

It was originally posted by Jools last Sunday:

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TO52Q2dXVIU


Thanks Deathfish. I'll go back and see what others remarked. Looks to me she is pretty far gone.

Putting it on? Might be. Might be her ace in the hole.
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Rudy's bracelets

Postby Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:20 am

I was wondering why Rudy was the only one in handcuffs, too.

Had a thought last night about the report that Meredith pulled herself along, rather than being moved. Surely she didn't cover herself with the duvet? Somebody certainly did.
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Postby Loz on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:36 am

Corrina, I guess the experts will be able to determine from the blood if she would be able to drag herself into the final position, she may have moved about at first, but I'm with you, someon put that cover on her.
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Postby Brian S. on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:40 am

Corrina wrote:Had a thought last night about the report that Meredith pulled herself along, rather than being moved. Surely she didn't cover herself with the duvet? Somebody certainly did.


Great observation Corrina,

The investigators will know where/when that duvet was thrown on her because it was or wasn't dragged across the pool of blood in front of the wardrobe.

Two people made a very rapid exit after her scream. Meredith was still alive when Rudy left but in what position?

Any blood found on the duvet could be an excellent pointer to a murder scene revisited.
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Postby Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:47 am

LOZ! You're back!!!!!!!!! I haven't seen you since Haloscan...4? 5? Nice to see you.

Nicki posted part of an interview with the Kercher's lawyer and he stated that they don't believe Meredith was moved by the killers, but rather that she had pulled herself there. I think two of the suspects having been witnessed hanging about and keeping an eye on the flat seems plausible. Someone waited until Meredith died before returning to cover her up.
Last edited by Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Courtroom observations

Postby Brian S. on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:57 am

In contrast to her quiet confidence a week ago Amanda Knox, the American student suspected of taking part in the murder last year of Meredith Kercher, her British flatmate, appeared tense, pale and nervous today as she entered a courtroom in Perugia for the second in a series of pre-trial hearings...She flinched visibly as she passed reporters and photographers, audibly drawing in her breath.

Ms Knox's nervous manner was in contrast to her appearance at the first pre-trial hearing a week ago, when she appeared serene....

Court sources said that Mr Sollecito exchanged glances with Ms Knox when he entered the courtroom, but they did not speak. To ensure that they do not communicate the three suspects have been placed not beside or opposite each other but in three different rows, with Mr Sollecito in the front row, Ms Knox behind him, and Mr Guede in the third behind Ms Knox.


The Times
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Mirror People

Postby Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:59 am

Hello Michael,

Thanks! I registered yesterday when Tara posted the link. When and if we close down over here, I'm heading over to your pad. 8)

xo
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What song

Postby Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:12 am

She's nervous today, eh? I wonder what song she will be *dancing in the seats* to today.
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More info on the court proceedings

Postby Brian S. on Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:28 am

Two of Rudy's witnesses were heard this morning.

This afternoon it's Kokomani's turn.

The DNA expert evidence which was due to have been heard tomorrow has been put off until next week(I think I read somewhere else the 4th) at the request of Guilia Bongiorno.

Google translation - Adnkronos
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Re: Courtroom observations

Postby Fast Pete on Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:34 am

Brian S. wrote:Mr Sollecito in the front row, Ms Knox behind him, and Mr Guede in the third behind Ms Knox.


She can still whack him with a ruler. Are they actually sitting in the public area? Any shots of the courtroom?
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Postby Corrina on Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:38 am

Brian,

Thanks for the updates. Keep 'em coming!
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Re: Courtroom observations

Postby Brian S. on Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:51 am

Fast Pete wrote:
Brian S. wrote:Mr Sollecito in the front row, Ms Knox behind him, and Mr Guede in the third behind Ms Knox.


She can still whack him with a ruler. Are they actually sitting in the public area? Any shots of the courtroom?


Pete,

The pretrial is closed to the public and no cameras are allowed in the courtroom (the clip of Amanda's foot tapping last week I believe came from a smuggled in phone camera).

I read somewhere last week that the room being used is only 60 sq meters. There were about 30 people in the room including Meredith's parents and sister. I've read they aren't there this week but it sounds as if that courtroom is fairly crowded just with lawyers, court officials, witnesses, suspects and other necessary bodies.

Raffaele may definitely be within reach of that ruler. :lol:
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Postby DLW on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:12 am

A link to an interview with one of the forensic experts for Amanda. Believes the knife got contaminated?

http://tinyurl.com/4gzmol
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Coiffure Question

Postby Tara on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:20 am

What is up with RS and AK's hair? Why is Rudy allowed to shave his head yet the others can't get a trim? Knox and Sollecito's matching blue/white ensembles are a nice touch - do you think it was planned? They could be brother and sister :roll:

ImageImage
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Re: Coiffure Question

Postby nicki on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:23 am

Tara wrote:What is up with RS and AK's hair? Why is Rudy allowed to shave his head yet the others can't get a trim? Knox and Sollecito's matching blue/white ensembles are a nice touch - do you think it was planned? They could be brother and sister :roll:

ImageImage


Hi Tara, I don't think inmates are not allowed to get a hair cut. It must be their own choice if to get a hair trim or not.
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Re: MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Michael on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:26 am

Fast Pete wrote:Sorry everybody but you understand the urgency and the strain on Michael here. (Thanks a LOT Sparrow.)

Michael wrote:No. I can't port over threads. I have no access to the administrator panel here, neither do I have FTP access. The threads I will try and save will each have to be done manually, copied into notepad...


Michael, quicker (one hour's work) and maybe better way to go might be to "save" each of the 70 pages of this thread via the File menu of your browser into a new folder.


[font=Comic Sans MS]No, because they'll still have to be copied manually into one large file...I may as well do it that way in the first place. I don't have FTP access in the new forum either. That feature only comes with paid for forums, not the free ones. So, it's all got to be done 'manually'.[/font]

Fast Pete wrote:You will end up with 70 links and 70 little packages of material. The packages can be put on your new server (perhaps you have FTP access there?) and the links then posted on a housekeeping thread on your new site. Look would be the same as now.


[font=Comic Sans MS]My last comment applies[/font]

Fast Pete wrote:
Michael wrote:Why would Steve need to switch off the Haloscans?


Not need to, but maybe to make his point?


[font=Comic Sans MS]No, the Haloscans are the comments sections to 'his' articles on the Meredith Kercher case..a part of them. At the least, traffic to the Haloscans records as traffic to his True Crime site...this board has no physical connection with his site, it is only connected to his blogs by our board 'name'..and he only created it in any case to get us all the Hell off his blog. Hence why he doesn't care about here so much and is happy to suspend/delete it in the blink of an eye. In his eyes, for him, there are no positives in his having this board, only occasional headaches.[/font]

Fast Pete wrote:
Michael wrote:I'm sorry, which 'Halloween' colours are you referring to? Have they appeared on your site? I'd change it if they have...it doesn't sound healthy. But that's just me ;)

Fast Pete wrote:I'm seeing white text on black (sorta okay) with, ah, blood-red links.


[font=Comic Sans MS]Not relevant really, it's in the queue to be modified up to PHPBB3...been waiting 4 weeks now and can happen any day...when it does, 'any' current theme on the board will be stripped and replaced with PHPBB3 standard theme (BB2 themes can't/won't work in BB3).

The theme I have installed, until the impending upgrade occurs, is actually the best of an either bad, or an unsuitable/innaproprite or 'buggy' lot. It also happens to show up the font quite well..for example..on the index page I can read, easily, the different sub-forum descriptions text on standard 100% magnification...as soon as I come here, I have to raise my mag up to at least 130%..but to be really comfortable in reading all data and posts...150% mag...in that sense, it's by far the best of all the themes I've tested and data/text visibility/clarity is one of the most important requirements. If you think that theme is garish...lol...trust me, a very large percentage of alternative theme options make that one look positively 'conservative'. A large amout of others are inapropriate...as they're 'Themed'...like, having pictures of cars pasted all over the theme (apparently, car racing is a very popular focus amongst forums on FF) or, the huge amount of 'Gamers' themes splattered with graphics of hardware tech or characters from certain popular video games (LOADS of those), and all sorts of other themed themes that make them unusable. Others are just sickly...like covered with pictures of violets and daisies...or bright pink with ribbons and bows or images of dogs all over them, or also a couple of Christmas themed ones. Some others that look like they may be okay in preview, don't render the board properly when used and look horrendous. If I could design my own theme, it would actually look very different to what I have on there...but I can't, so that's the best one to have for now. Finally, what other feedback I have gotten back from members (not much..but some)..is that they like the look of it. So, it's a case of 'it'll do'. Everything renders properly, the other main thing..and it's 'unthemed'..the last 'main' requirement, so I have other priorities of things that need to be organised right now in any case.

Fast Pete wrote:
Michael wrote:"...hate to lose this thread and the other thread here" One of us has their arithmetic buggered.


Fast Pete wrote:Oh! I see there are actually two others. Main Discussion 2 May and Main Discussion 29 May. Sorree. More work for you.


[font=Comic Sans MS][i][size=14]I think you'll find there are 4 main discussion threads to be moved over; I., II., III., IIII. ,. Then, there's 'In Their Own Words' thread that needs to be copied, the 'Legal Context' thread, the 'Clarifications on PL and others' thread, THE CAST OF CHARACTERS' thread...umm..and some certain individual posts from a few other threads....stuff on the mops, Minotaur's scenario, Steve Huff's post on the availability of one of the old Haloscans being available from him in PDF format...little bits here and there that have to be hunted out. I also have to copy over to my HD a good many PM's in my Inbox/Savebox, as many are 'Moderator' PM's and so serve as an important record for both the community and myself in regard to Moderator activity...other 'personal' PM's I also want to save as they contain things like contact information, pictures..technical help I've given that would be handy to refer to again...stuff like that.

Talking of which, members may want to consider what PM's they may have saved in their boxes that they may wish to preserve for themselves.

This following comment is in response to the quote 'below'. Umm...nice idea..but they've all got to be saved in exactly the same way...I also need to edit all the posts in each thread saved in notepad/wordpad to asign them some kind of number system, as well as give all those that don't have one a 'Subject Heading', as once posted up in the other board they'll be in the format of one huge massive post (like on Candace's blog comments) for each thread (for the most part), so individual posts will no longer be able to be dynamically linked to...so, they need some sort of number system so individual posts can at least be reffered to, if needed, and that will have to be by a 'number' system, again a bit like on Candace's blog. Therefore, the amount of time it would take me to explain the system I'm using to helper/s, with added risks of misunderstanding potentially causing some of the work to be technically out of 'sync' would be...no..I have a clear view in my head what to do so it's just easier and quicker if 'I' get on and do it. Thank's for the offer though. What 'would' be a help, is if members could revise each of the threads I've mentioned and hunt down each of the posts they themselves have made and edit them to give them a keyword based 'Subject Heading'...as that would actually make individual posts that may contain specific valid information to show up quicker and easier when a member uses the board's 'Search' feature to hunt down information on a particular aspect. It will also aid members scanning down through the saved threads visualy to find quicker any relevant, or specific, information that is of interest to them at that given moment. Even if a post is 'Off-Topic'...give it an 'Off-Topic' Subject Heading, or if it's just a response to another post without adding anything new; give it a 'RE: Whatever' Subject Heading..it aids quicker elimination in manual scans. Moreover, could every member from this point, in any post you now make, please post it with a 'Subject Heading'. If you are unsure what a 'Subject Heading' is...for example, the Subject Heading' of 'this' post is: 'RE: MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT'. That would be a 'great' help.[/font]

Fast Pete wrote:Suggestion here. If you want to go the "save" route I described above? Ask several of us to each save one of those threads. I'll take the shortest (just kidding!)


Fast Pete wrote:Do you have a way in your controls of varying the number of posts per page? (you are set at 50 posts per page now.)

If yes, could you set that number to the very max? Like 100 posts per page? That halves the number of pages to be "saved".


[font=Comic Sans MS]Yes. That's a very good suggestion, thanks. Only problem with that, is Skep will have to make that change as I don't have access to those settings here, unless a) She promotes me up to Admin for our final days here (which, come to think of it, would be great as there'd be a whole number of things that could be done faster if I can have access to the settings..hint hint ;) ), or; b) reads this post and can remember how to make that setting change and then does so. 'a)' is the optimum...if Skep needs me to write out technical instructions to make any required adjustments, those are just huge amounts of new work for me on top of all the other stuff I have to do, Quicker for me to do it... and thinking about it for a moment, there are some slight technical adjustments I'd like to make that would be advantageous..eg, for a start, Freeforums 'imposed' a new Mod on us a few days ago, switched 'on' as default (Grrr), in the setting 'they' chose (Grrr) that also happens to be the wrong setting to be of use and just mucks up the rendering of the board, confuses things (last thing we need right now), is ugly and actually 'could' be of use in it's 'other' setting. If you haven't noticed, the Mod to which I'm reffering, is the one that's added all the guff and clutter to the top of the board. Just one example.

Oh, also forgot, I also wanted to save all the threads on the 'other' forum that actually appears on this message board, related to the True Crime main site, and pass it on to Steve as a favour, for his records or to be posted elsewhere if he wishes.[/font]


Fast Pete wrote:If not, please email the FreeForums owners to adjust it? They almost certainly will, as you are sticking with them for the new
site.


[font=Comic Sans MS]Can do without them, as explained above, but just as a FYI...for any help requirement for any aspect, one only gets Freeforums personal support via e-mail if they are using the 'paid for' version of the forums. The rest of us peasants have to post in the Freeforums 'Forum Support' forum and wait in a queue for for someone to answer our query or solve our problem. They are actually very helpfull and quite fast, considering, in getting to you...you don't have to wait more then a day, but still..not as fast and optimum as direct support would be, 'if' we need their help at all over the next few days. Moreover, there's some things they require a certain password before they'll act, and the only person who has that particular password and username is Steve Huff...it's the one sent to the forum owner/creator via e-mail when they first created their board. This is why we are not in the queue to be made up to PHPBB3...to put the board in the queue, one has to access the CCS Panel (Community Control Panel) on Freeforums and press the button to request your board be upgraded and that can only be accessed with the particular password and username I mentioned, one that Skep and I don't have, so we couldn't do it. Incidentally, the new forum 'is' in the queue...I saw to that. BB3 will be great, the shear range of extra features it gives us will make it a 'proper' board...and Hell, we'll even be able to basic things like...split threads...'Merge' threads or individual posts...essential stuff that we don't have here and would help things immensley if we did, as say..I could merge some of the smaller threads that need to be moved making it easier. So, 'everything' has to be the hard way. :evil: [/font]
Last edited by Michael on Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Winston Churchill
Michael
 
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