The True Crime Weblog Message Board

everyone seems to have a theory (or two or three) about what happened and why, though the why can't really be answered, ever, adequately, for a crime so senseless. here's one theory of sorts: ak meets up with rg at basketball court to score a bit of hash. she invites him over, sees he's into mk, eggs him on, in pursuit of extreme emotion maybe both she and rs, who has met up with them at the cottage, encourage rg to go for mk. things get out of hand. mk resists. rg kills her. he runs off. ak and rs, not thinking clearly, cannot believe he did this and they realize they kind of made it happen. not thinking clearly, the make a very poor decision: rather than coming clean about their lesser role, they try to cover their tracks. they cannot implicate rg because he can implicate them -- and they feel sort of guilty that they set him up. rg cannot, likewise, implicate a & r, though stakes are lower for him since he's cooked either way. but he actually feels bad that he let them down, especially ak who invited him over, by murdering this young woman, which was not how it was meant to go. such a mess for all involved.

Hi Abby yes, that's true, it's darned tough to work out.
Who can ya believe?

Who could you believe even if you tried your hardest?
Who is telling the truth out of Amanda and Raffaele, or are they both lying?
Raffaele could have been believed if his story had worked out but it doesn't, on many counts.

Unless one of them is telling the truth fireworks at court will not be provided by said court, the fireworks will be the explosion but if there is no truth then neither is going to be able to convincing attack anbd faall out at the other.

If I was innocent, I think I wouldn't care what the court thought, I'd be angry.

If I was Amanda and had stayed with Raffaele all night, all evening too, like I claimed, then him doing that, abandoning me but lying about it would make me incredibly hard to contain. But, if it is he who was at home alone then it'd be him being angry. If he was at home alone then al Amanda can be angry about if she was not there with him, is about him not helping her, but, if she knows what happened and was not with Raffaele she knows now already she can't go shouting at him if it is not true, so that bit would be between the two of them, as he would know she knows he knows she is a liar.

If Soll is telling the truth then it makes Amanda a liar, if she was with him he'd have no reason to harm her this way.

If he was not at home but with Amanda at the scene of the crime and knows as well as she does what happened because he was part of it, then he calculated what it would mean for him to say, I was home alone Amanda was not with me, what he would have calculated is tha Amanda could not then in turn say you are lying because you was not at home either, so he knew he could say he was at home alone and she would not be able to do a thing about it except own up and tell the truth.

To my mind, that would explain why when she was told Soll has said you was not with him and you only gotr home at 1 that she immediately switched stories, this way she is looking very definitely guilty of something but, thgough she looks that way, still I think Soll is a liar as well.

I think, in court for Amanda to tell the truth and to really make it ring true she'll have to announce some awful things, and she does not want to.

That'd be one way of imagining how the puzzle fits, there must be something she was involved in that was not as bad as murder but in what she was up to it led to Meredith's murder. She had then the way it feels to me, a lot to do with getting Sollecito enbtirely on her side and wound up, he like a fool went much further but at the time the things that happened all went from one thing to another, because people do wind up doing things that when they look at it later and at a distance cannot even believe it themselves how stupid they were.
I'm sure some rapists also go nuts and some will genuinely dislike themselves later, though maybe doing it again because they are ill, damaged, pathetic or whatever.

Murder happens too where people deeply regret it, even though they were mighty mad at the time. Yes even though they regret it meantime, many will go on to try to get away with it, because the idea of all those years locked away, let's face it, nobody wants to do it. A truly genuinely remorseful person though, I think, would want to pay, after all that's a real sign of being truly sorry for your own actions which is all about taking responsibility.
Those who killed Meredith, did not take responsibility for themselves.

If both of these didn't have it happen this way, then, it means Sollecito was at home alone, leaving Knox to have been up to something with Guede.

I think if that was true, Sollecito would never have allowed himself to become involved, no way. So I think he is lying, his crock of shit line, his inconsistencies, it was all lies.

I still think then that the motive lies with Amanda's inability to adapt to different lifestyles in a healthy way, she went off her nut, by letting that life go to her head, where she was far from the controlling clutches of homelife and conformality, she was smoking like a train and became like engrossed in her own pursuits where she did not have a grasp on reality anymore where she began to annoy people, the annoyance she caused she mirrored dead hard back to them by feeding on the negativity it led to the terrible bad vibes that shook the already shakey disposition of Sollecito, the guy who was not in his hometown either, who was rather dishevelled, and lonely, drifting into depressions whilst holding his end of the deal up with his dad by following his study. Amanda was as fresh air to him, but somewhere the silly pair of them, went off the rails. I think this is why Amanda is so so speechless because though she doesn't want to face up to the damage, she knows she helped cause it and though she knows the penalty she is unable to face it. she was, if you ask me, so very angry, that it left her unable to feel any empathy for Meredith at all, and the first time it was revealed that she had said smething about Meredith it just sounded so empty and cold and hard and fake.

Somehow this explains how in Soll's head, eventhough he may very well have slaughtered Meredith, he sees it as Amanda's fault for real and in tis way somewhere in his mind he sees himself as innocent, it's all that girls fault, it is all that Ivorian's fault. I think he sees it as Amanda's fauklt because she may have kept on moaning angrily about that Meredith, this that and the other, when Raffaele flipped, he felt totally justified, his anger came out and all trhe while in his mind he imagined he was doing it, in that instant/flash for his Amanda, his love, his girl.

He feels justified or felt it, because up until then, he WAS just a quiet timid guy, not gormless because he is intelligent yet, in a sense, he was gormless, the weed made him docile as an overfed mouse, then Amanda came along, and I think he was beginning to have a great time, and so was she, but, selfishness upsets people.

When parents spoil kids the kids grow up and nobody likes them, because genuine people don't like spoilt brats.
I don't think Amanda was a spoilt brat, but I do think she has issues, concerning her upbringing, her dear mother who did her very best, entirely shattered by all this, contrary to what some people at first speculated about them, they were not just rich, actually just like Meredith's mother did, Amanda's mother probably did everything she could to make Amanda feel lovced and to help her grow up well.

Something though, may be wrong inside Amanda's heart, not so much her mind, and the things that have been said aboyt her actually being sweet may be very true, and something like her courteousness and the mix of trying to please parents and live up to their expectations, even if the parents do not know it, that they may exert such a pressure to do well, may have led to Amanda unravelling in a terrible way, through being too lethargic from smoking, it does make you not care so much, not like real straight people do runing aboutr being ovcerly neat, I mean look at wha the Beatles diod start, with, hey take it easy, cool man, get laid back, grow your hair, grow a beard if you like (ladies discluded- though, feel free). Therefore even if Meredith didn't like some of the things Amanda did, I think it would have had to have been more to do with a mixture of negative behaviour that was not just experienced as unpleasant but as intuitively dangerous, the men that Amanda kept bringing into the female residence.

I think, Amanda and Soll fed on each other, for the wrong things, she for stability being a stranger he was her guide in his own land, she was worldly, from the big USA, I think Raffaele would have been more in love with her than has been mentioned, but, he, is intelligent, and he either wasn't with her or he was and that means his intelligence made him abandon and idea of love, meaning, he was after all very realistic, his dad probably shouted down the phone what he had to do, in the few days after the murder, he probably called home by the normal telephone, his dad may have even visited Perugia to save talking on the phone these are not stupid people, dad is only a top urologist with about 4 separate top jobs.

I think, if they are guilty, the couple, they wil genuinely feel terrible abot it when it enters their heads, but, they are also very self-possessed, and not that far that they are able to give it al up for remorse.
The truth about Raffaele is where he has his dad speak for him, where his dad said, Amanda has caused him allof this and where Raffaele spoke for himself and said all of it is because of Amanda.

That is where the truth is, but, still it may mean that he means far off in his mind that she caused him to kill Meredith. That way, he feels innocent though being a savage killer.

I still think somehow Amanda had Guede there in the house and the three of them were there when Meredith came home. From pleasantries it may have been Guede who though being able to gewt into Meredith's room without Meredith freaking out he may have gone off his head and half raped her when the others or Amanda became involved, when Meredith flipped after all if it had been Amanda who had brought this guy into the house and he then molested Meredith and that only later even after already being half raped on top of that Meredith discovered her money gone that might have been where Amanda and Soll became involved, first Amanda and then Soll when Amanda actually started fighting with Meredith and Soll jumped in. It's the only realistic way I see them all having gotten involved. Therefore not Guede with his romantic shit and his fake sorrow about being a coward but he may have been a friendly guy only going too far he couldn't keep his hands to himself, he wanted Meredith just like Amanda said.

Not Lumumba, Guede wanted Meredith. And I also think Amanda played silly games like people do help each other hget set up with someone they like but you don't just do that for someone if you know the friend of yours will not be interested at all.

If Rudy Guede had any type of connection with either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, it would have been brought out by now. Rudy Guede has stated that he was never 'tight' with Amanda Knox. If Rudy Guede had been involved so deeply in this with Amanda Knox, then there would be more evidence floating around to show this. There is absolutely no evidence that shows that Rudy Guede came back to the house; absolutely none. All of the evidence that is there points to either Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox. I repeat, Amanda Knox's blood mixed with that of Meredith. The knife, which everyone is criticizing, has the DNA of both Meredith and Amanda Knox. The DNA of Raffale Sollecito is on the brassiere clasp of Meredith. The shoe print is not that of Rudy Guede. Rudy Guede fled the country because he was frightened. He was there. If his story is true, then neither Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito got a good look at him. Finally, if Rudy Guede was that involved with Amanda Knox, then there would have had to have been some type of post connection between the two. The post crime scene shows both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito together. And most likely Rudy Guede was still in the area. He never even was around them at all; not even for a minute.
Please show me any kind of evidence that can prove that there is a connection between Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox. I would like to see it.

Off topic

Hooray! Beep, you're here!

Corrina, Corrina! You are too nice to me!

Hello Beep.

BPCL: If Rudy Guede had any type of connection with either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, it would have been brought out by now.
TLC: I'm not sure this statement is accurate, or rather, I think it is not necessarily so, I think there is a lot has been hidden. What has been hidden, to my mind, what is missing, seems to be the glue that allows all of the pages to remain a loose fodder.
BPCL: Rudy Guede has stated that he was never 'tight' with Amanda Knox.
TLC: What Rudy says, and what is the truth are two separate things. Unless you believe or unless one believes that everything he says is gospel truth.
BPCL: If Rudy Guede had been involved so deeply in this with Amanda Knox, then there would be more evidence floating around to show this.
TLC: I'm not sure about that, my idea is that something that happened in the cottage was part chance. Part of what happened, I think, was that it was a set of circumstances that were not cohesive. Rudy may have entered partly into the events of his own accord, where he did something that Meredith didn't like. He may well have been with Amanda and Raffaele or only with Amanda in the cottage, but entered into his own actions, perhaps by saying hello to Meredith in her room. Where it is not cohesive, I think, is from there the other two became involved, which led to all three of them becoming involved. I do not see any evidence based on character estimation that Meredith would have entered into anything romantic with Rudy Guede. I think, that point is where you differ, because you took on the idea that Meredith may, though having the boyfriend downstairs entered into consenuality with dealings concerning Mr Guede. Attestation to character I expect will be expressed by those close to Meredith, meaning, I think that those who truly loved Meredith, and cared for her, will have been doing and will be doing everything to aid the case, in its search for the truth, so they will reveal to those who need to know, whether it is a possibility that Meredith would have entered into a relationship be it fling-like or more with Mr Guede, they, her friends close to her will be able to make a pretty good set of statements about that based on what they'd all been doing together just before Meredith's death and based on what Meredith told them.
I will not be surprised if any such idea of Meredith having had consensual anything with Mr Guede is ruled out entirely by those formulating this case for the prosecution. Though it isn't certain and in no way do I think it is impossible that Meredith felt something for Guede.
You could be right, it would declare how Guede's tracks were left all over the place.
BCPL: There is absolutely no evidence that shows that Rudy Guede came back to the house; absolutely none.
TLC: I don't think if he was involved that he would have gone back there, he would have had no reason. but Amanda, there is no way she could have quietly disappeared, she was stationed in that house and much to her displeasure, if she was involved then, she had to stay. She had no choice, it would have been the end of her life to go on the run, that much sense she would have had, to know that the option of fugitive on the run was no option, so she tried to fake a break-in, and conspired with Raffaele, to mislead, by cleaning and planting false tracks. It may be that Raffaele only assisted her in her endeavours to clean up the scene because at first he believed her woes about having been caught up in the whole thing and he may have believed her to be innocent. But, it looks like he did much more than only assist her, to me at least it does.
BCPL: All of the evidence that is there points to either Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox.
TLC: I don't know about that when Rudy's fingerprints are printed in blood on the pillow under Meredith's head.
BCPL: I repeat, Amanda Knox's blood mixed with that of Meredith.
TLC: That is where she looks very guilty indeed
BCPL: The knife, which everyone is criticizing, has the DNA of both Meredith and Amanda Knox.
TLC: That is where she looks very guilty indeed.
BCPL: The DNA of Raffaele Sollecito is on the brassiere clasp of Meredith.
TLC: That is where he looks very guilty indeed
BCPL: The shoe print is not that of Rudy Guede.
I don't know that this means he is innocent.
BCPL: Rudy Guede fled the country because he was frightened.
TLC: I believe that, but exactly what he was frightened of and in which context is puzzling, maybe he is innocent and knew he'd be blamed, maybe he is guilty and fled knowing somehow the heat was on. But to just desert your apartment in that small city would have caused suspicion too, after a while, without having told the owner he didn't want the room anymore and leaving all of his things behind. If it had been one of the other two in the same position, and if they were guilty they'd not have just deserted their home, I think, they'd have tried to leave under normal methods like telling the owner, so it points to Rudy being in a terrible panic, I don't know if the panic is positive or negative.
BCPL: He was there. If his story is true, then neither Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito got a good look at him.
TLC: He has stated he was there. If his story is true I think at least Raffaele would have had a decent look at him.
BCPL: Finally, if Rudy Guede was that involved with Amanda Knox, then there would have had to have been some type of post connection between the two.
TLC: I do not see that this is necessarily true. They may have even thought best not be seen at all, not together.
BCPL: The post crime scene shows both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito together.
TLC: That's logical they were boy and girlfriend.
BCPL: And most likely Rudy Guede was still in the area. He never even was around them at all; not even for a minute.
TLC: I don't see that anyone can know that 100% for sure.
BCPL: Please show me any kind of evidence that can prove that there is a connection between Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox. I would like to see it.
TLC: There are connections I think but not in hard physical evidence, because though the totality is simple the circumstances without the bits missing make it all look very complicated, because the solution must be found in truth but there is instead only an abundance of deceit.
Part of the non-physical evidence is the similarity to the tales from both and even all three but anyway, from both, from Knox and from Guede where they instead of making something else up, they both correlate on those screams, and that is one thing that I personally do not have to even try imagining because that part seems to be so realistically conveyed by both, I think, because they both experienced Meredith's horrendously terrified screams, just like the neighbour felt it to her marrow, I think such screams touch something deep in a person's instinct, like a lion knows instinctively as well as from observance to pick out the weak, though humans mostly do not know about the selection of in-built tools that we all lost through the ages nevertheless, they still exist. I think this is why, these two conveyed that part of this story, without being aware of what they were giving away, if they'd been more adept crooks, they'd have had to miss out that bit of the truth. It rings a bell, like the court supposedly remarked, it sounded very convincing.
I think it is easy to imagine Meredith screaming her head off in fear, fighting for her life.

TLC,

I have to go, but will read your post thoughtfully. The only thing that I can say at first glance is, that we will just have to wait and see the evidence. But give me some time and I will respond. Have a great weekend!

[font=Trebuchet]TLC - please please pretty please put some spaces in between your paragraphs! I always read your posts, but it would be a teeny bit easier with some more space in between the paras. Easier on my eyes. Be kind to my eyes please! Thank you sweetness and light [/font]

TLC,

Thank you for your responses on this. Let's you and I be dispassionate about this. Let us forget our emotions and our feelings and be detectives. More than 6 months have passed since Meredith's death. It is true that you and I do not have all the facts about this case. All we can go on is what we know.

BPCL: If Rudy Guede had any type of connection with either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, it would have been brought out by now.

TLC: I'm not sure this statement is accurate, or rather, I think it is not necessarily so, I think there is a lot has been hidden. What has been hidden, to my mind, what is missing, seems to be the glue that allows all of the pages to remain a loose fodder.

There is no evidence that these three people are linked, absolutely none. Really , there is no evidence whatsoever.

BPCL: Rudy Guede has stated that he was never 'tight' with Amanda Knox.

TLC: What Rudy says, and what is the truth are two separate things. Unless you believe or unless one believes that everything he says is gospel truth.

Rudy Guede has admitted that he knew Amanda Knox and that is all that he has said. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows they went out with each other at any time.

BPCL: If Rudy Guede had been involved so deeply in this with Amanda Knox, then there would be more evidence floating around to show this.

TLC: I'm not sure about that, my idea is that something that happened in the cottage was part chance. Part of what happened, I think, was that it was a set of circumstances that were not cohesive. Rudy may have entered partly into the events of his own accord, where he did something that Meredith didn't like....I think, that point is where you differ, because you took on the idea that Meredith may, though having the boyfriend downstairs entered into consenuality with dealings concerning Mr Guede...

This is a fact. The Pathologist in this case has clearly stated that Meredith was not raped. He performed the autopsy. We must live with what he said. There is no evidence to the contrary TLC. We cannot assume any more than this on this case. Setting emotion and feelings aside, this is what we know. To be sure, we do not know the reasons why Rudy Guede was in the cottage that night. Only he knows that, and it has not yet been revealed. If Meredith Kercher was not raped, then what is the motive for her death? It certainly cannot be one of sexual violence.

BCPL: There is absolutely no evidence that shows that Rudy Guede came back to the house; absolutely none.

TLC: I don't think if he was involved that he would have gone back there, he would have had no reason.

I respectfully disagree with you. He would have gone back to cover his tracks just like Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox did. Why did they come back? The murder was clear cut. Meredith Kercher had been severely stabbed. No one saw anyone come and go. Why did the two of them come back?; they came back precisely because they had the most to hide. The evidence shows that the two of them came back. They both entered the room of Meredith Kercher to change the crime scene.

BCPL: All of the evidence that is there points to either Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox.

TLC: I don't know about that when Rudy's fingerprints are printed in blood on the pillow under Meredith's head.

Yes this is true and Rudy Guede will have to answer for this. Was his finger print there in a benign way, or not?

BCPL: I repeat, Amanda Knox's blood mixed with that of Meredith.

TLC: That is where she looks very guilty indeed

Agreed.

BCPL: The knife, which everyone is criticizing, has the DNA of both Meredith and Amanda Knox.

TLC: That is where she looks very guilty indeed.

Agreed.

BCPL: The DNA of Raffaele Sollecito is on the brassiere clasp of Meredith.

TLC: That is where he looks very guilty indeed

Agreed.

BCPL: The shoe print is not that of Rudy Guede.

TLC: I don't know that this means he is innocent.

I did not say he was innocent. I am looking at the facts as a detective would. This is the shoe print of another perpetrator. Most assuredly, Raffaele Sollecito.

BCPL: Rudy Guede fled the country because he was frightened.

TLC: I believe that, but exactly what he was frightened of and in which context is puzzling, maybe he is innocent and knew he'd be blamed, maybe he is guilty and fled knowing somehow the heat was on....I don't know if the panic is positive or negative.

We both have common ground here.

BCPL: He was there. If his story is true, then neither Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito got a good look at him.

TLC: He has stated he was there. If his story is true I think at least Raffaele would have had a decent look at him.

You could be right here. I have to investigate this aspect of the case better for the facts.

BCPL: Finally, if Rudy Guede was that involved with Amanda Knox, then there would have had to have been some type of post connection between the two.

TLC: I do not see that this is necessarily true. They may have even thought best not be seen at all, not together.

I respectfully disagree with you TLC. There is no evidence that can be shown that they were together post crime. We can only go with the facts here and the facts support that they were not together afterwards.

BCPL: The post crime scene shows both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito together.

TLC: That's logical they were boy and girlfriend.

Agreed.

BCPL: And most likely Rudy Guede was still in the area. He never even was around them at all; not even for a minute.

TLC: I don't see that anyone can know that 100% for sure.

Agreed and I need to do some more investigation on this.

BCPL: Please show me any kind of evidence that can prove that there is a connection between Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox. I would like to see it.

TLC: There are connections I think but not in hard physical evidence, because though the totality is simple the circumstances without the bits missing make it all look very complicated, because the solution must be found in truth but there is instead only an abundance of deceit...

Agreed. However, if we cannot prove the connections, then we cannot assume that they exist. If we do make assumptions that may or may not be true, then we cannot find the answers to this case. To solve it, we need to find the motive. Please help me do this if you will since you responded to my post. I worked hard on the Halo and have finally convinced myself that the motive was not one of sexual violence or about robbery. So what was it about then? To me, the severity of the knife wounds inflicted on the person of Meredith Kercher was about rage. The evidence shows this. No one just comes in and stabs someone like that. Amanda Knox was intensely jealous of Meredith Kercher, in fact I believe she hated her. Raffaele Sollecito was her lover. They had been taking drugs that day. We do not know what happened at the cottage between the three of them on the afternoon of the murder. IMHO, something happened during that afternoon that made Amanda Knox snap. Something was planned by both her and Raffaele Sollecito, IMHO. Meredith's money is stolen that day, after she left. She never told her friends that her rent money was missing.

Let us look at the evidence now to support this hypothesis. Amanda Knox's cell phone is pinged in the vicinity of the cottage at 8:38 pm. She pings Patrick Lumumba back at 8:40 pm. Both her cell phone and that of Raffaele Sollecito turn off at 8:40 pm A witness places Raffaele Sollecito at his house around this time. The last activity for his computer is at 9:10 pm. (Their individual alibis are no longer worth anything here; you and I both know that they both have lied on just about every aspect of this crime) DNA places both of them at the crime scene; we talked about this before. Both their cell phones turn on the next day at the same time. Amanda Knox is the only person with a key to the cottage; access into and out of the cottage was controlled by her.

Hi Beepy,

I am working but thanks mucho and I will reply but not in haste, see you later then

Darn Beep I replied and then it brought me to the sign in thing, but I had signed in already, I must copy before posting because now I lost my blimming post.... AGAIN!!!

I will have to return later.

TLC,

I do not have the hang of this place either. I really do miss the other format. It was so much better than this one. This one has too many bells and whistles. Sorry about that.

bpcl wrote:TLC,

I do not have the hang of this place either. I really do miss the other format. It was so much better than this one. This one has too many bells and whistles. Sorry about that.

Hang in there, Beep. You don't have to use the bells and whistles.
It WILL get easier and it IS better. Fewer disruptions from people with clumsily hidden agendas who want to shut down discussion. That is something to be grateful for.

[font=Trebuchet]Beep, stick with it. Remember you can ask anyone for help (I am MORE than happy to help you out), just don't give up. PM me with anything you don't understand about the workings of this board, no matter how insignificant you think they may be.

And I agree with Skep - it's soooooooo nice to escape the disruptions on Halo. Don't forget the message board is still new to us, but look how it's evolved already!!

You can also start your own topic if there's anything you want to concentrate on. It's actually much easier to be able to separate certain things away from the main discussion area, since it gets less 'clogged up' from other topics. But anyway, you're here for Meredith, like all of us - and you must stay put!! That's an order[/font]

BPCL: If Rudy Guede had any type of connection with either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, it would have been brought out by now.

TLC: I'm not sure this statement is accurate, or rather, I think it is not necessarily so, I think there is a lot has been hidden. What has been hidden, to my mind, what is missing, seems to be the glue that allows all of the pages to remain a loose fodder.

BEEP: There is no evidence that these three people are linked, absolutely none. Really , there is no evidence whatsoever.

TLC: That may be true, but it may be that the case for prosecution has more than shown.

I think that the signs of Guede in that house along with the other two, and their tracks may well be evidence.

It depends how you want to look at it BEEP, but in court, if the prosecutor can make it HARD that there are pointers and a viable story as to how these tracks were laid then provide a believable scheme of things for that night, then he may convince thew jusdges that he is right.

That exaplanation with loose ends may be enough for the judges and the head judge to decide, that these three are linked, because evidence does not always just have to be physical.

Assumptions can be made, led off from common sense, though assumptions are not evidence, all of what is gathered, like ideas as to what happened join together to make up some kind of a whole.

There is evidence that all three were there Beep, and when the prosecutor, along with all he has in his hands qua people testifying, character analysis, the physical tracks, are glued up, it may not be that important to be able to prove through having someone come forward and say, yes I know they knew each other. I do not think the evidence has to be tuerned out that way.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

BPCL: Rudy Guede has stated that he was never 'tight' with Amanda Knox.

TLC: What Rudy says, and what is the truth are two separate things. Unless you believe or unless one believes that everything he says is gospel truth.

Beep: Rudy Guede has admitted that he knew Amanda Knox and that is all that he has said. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows they went out with each other at any time.

TLC: I do not think there needs to be hard evidence that they went out together, they may have just met by chance as people do when out, I know a lot of people who have never been in my home and I have never been to theirs I also do not even know where they live. Also there are times I am out, at a bar, or a club (and even not at inside places but also outside on the street at a place to swim, there are so many possibilities), I speak to people and nobody else there knows anything about it, it is dark it is smokey, people have drunk alcohol, are dancing, or have taken drugs. Fact.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

BPCL: If Rudy Guede had been involved so deeply in this with Amanda Knox, then there would be more evidence floating around to show this.

TLC: I'm not sure about that, my idea is that something that happened in the cottage was part chance. Part of what happened, I think, was that it was a set of circumstances that were not cohesive. Rudy may have entered partly into the events of his own accord, where he did something that Meredith didn't like....I think, that point is where you differ, because you took on the idea that Meredith may, though having the boyfriend downstairs entered into consenuality with dealings concerning Mr Guede...

Beep: This is a fact. The Pathologist in this case has clearly stated that Meredith was not raped. He performed the autopsy. We must live with what he said. There is no evidence to the contrary TLC. We cannot assume any more than this on this case. Setting emotion and feelings aside, this is what we know. To be sure, we do not know the reasons why Rudy Guede was in the cottage that night. Only he knows that, and it has not yet been revealed. If Meredith Kercher was not raped, then what is the motive for her death? It certainly cannot be one of sexual violence.

TLC: I think you have misunderstood what the reading means that the pathologist made on this.

If a girl or woman is raped, it is not a fact that every rape must leave signs of force, like lesions, tearing, ruptured tissued or bruising, it is not so.

That he could not find any lesions, tearing, ruptured tissue and bruising on that part of Meredith's body, namely, her genitalia, it does in no way mean that she wasd not raped, all as it means is the pathologist was unable to prove she was raped. He also was unable to prove that she was not raped because no pathologist can ALWAYS PROVE RAPE.

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BCPL: There is absolutely no evidence that shows that Rudy Guede came back to the house; absolutely none.

TLC: I don't think if he was involved that he would have gone back there, he would have had no reason.

BEEP: I respectfully disagree with you. He would have gone back to cover his tracks just like Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox did. Why did they come back? The murder was clear cut. Meredith Kercher had been severely stabbed. No one saw anyone come and go. Why did the two of them come back?; they came back precisely because they had the most to hide. The evidence shows that the two of them came back. They both entered the room of Meredith Kercher to change the crime scene.

TLC: I also respectably disagree with you BEEP, based on the fact, there is no one fixed manner of doing things, it is said a thief or as crook always returns to the scene of the crime but I do not think that idea is always true. No way.

I imagine Guede would have felt already dead lucky to have gotten away thus so far, so far so good, I can't see why he would want to go back theree, how could he have known everything about when who and who would be coming back home, no I cannot see him risking going back there, whereas the Madam Knox had no choice, tio run would have been instant guilt pointer, and pointing right at her.
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BCPL: All of the evidence that is there points to either Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox.

TLC: I don't know about that when Rudy's fingerprints are printed in blood on the pillow under Meredith's head.

Beep: Yes this is true and Rudy Guede will have to answer for this. Was his finger print there in a benign way, or not?

TLC: I think much of it does point to Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito, but not all, that is a matter of opinion. You can come to the conclusion Guede is an honest man if you believe his story, but, it seems rather far fetched to me, and that based on character attestation as given by those who actually did know Meredith properly.

Her dad, her friends, some ayt home somre in Perugia. They will be offering every kind of assistance they can, and they have no ulterior motives for saying anything no devious behaviour from them, they just loved Meredithg, miss her and want to see truth not bull.

Based on that above, then when they state, no, Meredith was surprised how Ms Knox went with a guy so fast, well, that characterises the way Meredith thought, leading back to her own persona, where she liked, it seems, to get to know a person, and she then acted according to dignity not cheapening herself by being too fast to get involved.

It does not mean though, that Amanda was cheap, no, it means she may have been gullible or naive, or seeking comfort from men for something she missed from her real dad.

It may also have nothing to do with that but, but her step-father Chris Mellas, though he may in fact be okay, nevertheless acted pretty aggressively on haloscan if that was him.

Sometimes people miss a thing and seek something they missed somewhere, a girl might seek a father figure and go on for years picking the wrong kind of guy, men too are sometimes unable to enjoy a real erotic experience and unable to interact properly, where in the relationship things are based on two individuals acting like adults with sound minds; instead he places his woman into the role of surrogate mother. He never learned to take care of himself, he leaves home then his girlfriends take mom's place.

Chris Mellas seemed way over the top if you ask me, his keeping on about how he was Amanda's dad. I know all about the varuous roles but if I was 14 and a woman had entered my dad's life who was only 13 years older than me, and started calling me son I do'nt know if I'd have gotten a crush on her or called her mommy. I would have found it a bit strange.

I think there's something wrong in that family.

The only way that truth will be revealed about how the fingerprints were embedded that way, and whether in a spill of hatred or of compassion will be when the route they all took that night is revealed one way or the other, I think someone will crack I do not think it will be Sollecito, he seems like a twisted hard b----, and he is not going to choke up and shake his head when he doesn't get his way.

Amanda may do though, because she already did get intro delirium tremens without the need of alcohol withdrawal.

No amount of coaching for preparation in court will protect someone with a vulnerable nature.
Amanda is struggling, she is not hard enough, and the questions will come in ways that nobody will have been able to know about exactly.

She may have a partly defective dysfunctional mentality but she is not fool-proof, she can't control herself, this may be the reason all of this happened to start with, lack of self-control.

I hope if Amanda is hiding something that she does break down in court and cracks.

If she is innocent then indeed of course she must be released, but it's going to take more than acting like spoilt brats, more than aggressively spouting arrogance about and more than trying to manipulate the media and public opinion to get the judges to believe those fake lines these people have been giving.
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BCPL: The shoe print is not that of Rudy Guede.

TLC: I don't know that this means he is innocent.

Beep: I did not say he was innocent. I am looking at the facts as a detective would. This is the shoe print of another perpetrator. Most assuredly, Raffaele Sollecito.

TLC: I too think it is probably Sollecito's shoe sole printed in blood onto the tiled floor.
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BCPL: Finally, if Rudy Guede was that involved with Amanda Knox, then there would have had to have been some type of post connection between the two.

TLC: I do not see that this is necessarily true. They may have even thought best not be seen at all, not together.

I respectfully disagree with you TLC. There is no evidence that can be shown that they were together post crime. We can only go with the facts here and the facts support that they were not together afterwards.

TLC: After the murder I think he might have wanted to avoid her like the plague.
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BCPL: Please show me any kind of evidence that can prove that there is a connection between Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox. I would like to see it.

TLC: There are connections I think but not in hard physical evidence, because though the totality is simple the circumstances without the bits missing make it all look very complicated, because the solution must be found in truth but there is instead only an abundance of deceit...

Beep: Agreed. However, if we cannot prove the connections, then we cannot assume that they exist.

TLC: I think we can assume anything but can assumptions be used to be part of the explanation the prosecutor will be entering in court at the feet of the judges as his take on what happened and will those assumptions and ideas joined together with factual physical evidence do a better job of convincing those judges that the prosecutor and his version is correct or will the defence have a better and more believable and provable version?
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Beep: If we do make assumptions that may or may not be true, then we cannot find the answers to this case.

TLC: I'm not sure about that, I think you mean if we base EVERYTHING on assumptions nobody can prove how the case fits together but we are only looking at it independently we are not the ones who have to get it right in court because we will not be there.

We can try to find answers but to find THE answer is going to be dead hard from where we are standing, unless someone came along and told you privately;

hey listen this Guede I knew him, and he told me what happened and this is the missing part of the story, listen up.

But that will not happen Beep.

I do not know that it is useful to try to base every solution to this only on evidence simply because it seems clear evidence has been done away with by the duo Knox and Sollecito, I do not think Guede had anything to do with the hiding of evidence.

I really think he may have molested Meredith and the other two got involved and even did worse and that is how they are all tied in, and in a big mess. I think they thought his tracks would be the things that would see them get away clean they had not imagined the police would get onto Guede because they knew nothing of his record with the police. they miscalculated because they are amateurs.
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Beep: To solve it, we need to find the motive.

TLC: Yes partl;y though the motive may not have been so big as some may imagine, it may have been as Amanda said; STUPID. I think it was, really trivial, but that jealousy and envy and projection, that of Amanda blaming Meredith for her own failures, much in the same way Amanda continued to blame everyone else, says a lot about how these STUPID things may have caused the rage you mention that led to Meredith's death.
Still, the motive wasn't that big, it snowballed and that is what is the STUPID thing Amanda mentioned.

That word she used rings true to me.

I do not see them having planned to kill Meredith in Amanda's own home, that would be more than stupid that would be simply preposterous!
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Beep: Please help me do this if you will since you responded to my post. I worked hard on the Halo and have finally convinced myself that the motive was not one of sexual violence or about robbery. So what was it about then? To me, the severity of the knife wounds inflicted on the person of Meredith Kercher was about rage. The evidence shows this.

TLC: Well, am trying as many others are too Beep. I think there was rage. And the rage says a lot about the inability to take responsibility for one's own life, like Amanda losing the plot in Perugia, smoking all day, getting onto bad terms with various people. Taking it out on Meredith but inciting loosed-minded others like Sollecito, to go nuts I think it was him who went the whole hog, he seems weird, especially because his eyes seem to be like an autistic's avoiding contact with others people's.
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Beep: No one just comes in and stabs someone like that. Amanda Knox was intensely jealous of Meredith Kercher, in fact I believe she hated her. Raffaele Sollecito was her lover.

TLC: sadly, I think you are wrong, some people do just kill people for s.f. all, no reason just their own miserable mental make-up.
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Beep: Amanda Knox was intensely jealous of Meredith Kercher,

TLC: I think you may be absolutely right
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Beep: in fact I believe she (Amanda) hated her (Meredith) .

TLC: I do not know if she really hated her, but, she was for some reason very angry and I think the reason was because of Meredith being more adjusted, and Amanda blamed Meredith for several negative things in her own mental make-up that led to Amanda becoming unsuccessful at getting things right in Perugia.
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Beep: Raffaele Sollecito was her lover. They had been taking drugs that day. We do not know what happened at the cottage between the three of them on the afternoon of the murder. IMHO, something happened during that afternoon that made Amanda Knox snap.

TLC: I don't know if it was that afternoon, unless it was something Meredith was unaware of, otherwise she'd have relayed it to her friends when she ate with them that evening.
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Beep: Something was planned by both her and Raffaele Sollecito, IMHO. Meredith's money is stolen that day, after she left. She never told her friends that her rent money was missing.

TLC: So I think she only found out when she returned after dinner at her friend's place. I do not think they planned to kill her.
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Beep: Let us look at the evidence now to support this hypothesis. Amanda Knox's cell phone is pinged in the vicinity of the cottage at 8:38 pm. She pings Patrick Lumumba back at 8:40 pm. Both her cell phone and that of Raffaele Sollecito turn off at 8:40 pm A witness places Raffaele Sollecito at his house around this time. The last activity for his computer is at 9:10 pm. (Their individual alibis are no longer worth anything here; you and I both know that they both have lied on just about every aspect of this crime) DNA places both of them at the crime scene; we talked about this before. Both their cell phones turn on the next day at the same time. Amanda Knox is the only person with a key to the cottage; access into and out of the cottage was controlled by her.


TLC: I agree the phones turning of highly suspicious and might have been about not wanting to be disturbed but I still think the punishment Knox may have wanted to put on Meredith was through humiliation or, still, it may still have been a sexual motive, after all, what did Sollecito mean by saying his Amanda sweet, only lived gfor pleasure and was divorced from reality. It was ALL HER FAULT they got into this shit. So what did he mean Beep? why would he have said those things and not something else?

I think, because Amanda may too have had a high sex drive, lots of people do, Madonna, a famous person, openly explaining what motivated her through-out her life. Look at he famous Michael Douglas, a sex addict.

I would not dismiss some kind of sexual factor just yet. No reason to dismiss it, because rape has no been proved and neither has it been disproved. The intention may not have been rape. i think Knox hgas some kind of thing she did with Guede. And Sollecito got involved too, because he was not assertive and he was happy to be happy imnstead of depressed. Amanda Knox was overpowering for him, because he was a loner in Perugia. She needed him for security, he was ROOT, he was Italian, she was a stranger, he had the proper apartment, the stability but his character was not likewise. If he killed Meredith he did it in pent-up misdplaced rage, in his mind for his Amanda.

I mean, look how fast he dumped his true love, Greensleeves, Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme, she was not a true love of his.

Hi All,

that's right Soozie me dear.

Beep, just ignore the bells and whistles, this format, I find, is better because you do have a short chance to edit, when your post is full of typos, I like that.

TLC,

I will have to look at each one of your posts and think about it; and that is an understatement!

Soozie UK,

I will stay put and obey your order!

TLC,

Thank you for your response. It is vividly clear to me that you have done a lot of reflection on the case and I appreciate that, and if I might say, so would the Kercher family as well as Meredith. In the future, I will keep my posts small so as not to monopolize the message board. I am posting a portion of the time line from the other room: I believe that Meredith's friends can be trusted to the maximum with regards to their times.

2100 Meredith leaves friend’s house with Sophie Purton to return home, Sophie walks
her halfway

2105 Sophie Purton leaves Meredith on Via Roscetto, Meredith continues home alone

2115 Around this time MK arrives home

2130 Meredith commences phone call with mother (What time did it end?)

2215 call made from MK's mobile to a service advising phone credit
balance

2230 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost
knocked over by a black man running away from scene”

I believe that Meredith Kercher was stabbed to death sometime between 9:30 and 10:30 pm; independent of what the prosecutors are saying. Would you agree or disagree with this assumption? Please keep in mind that in a way, I am going to try and lead you on a path of questions and this is the very first one. I cannot proceed forward with my line of questioning, should you find yourself in basic disagreement with this basic assumption of mine.

BEEP: I am posting a portion of the time line from the other room: I believe that Meredith's friends can be trusted to the maximum with regards to their times.

TLC: Absolutely
_________________________________________________________________________________________

21.00: Meredith leaves friend’s house with Sophie Purton to return home, Sophie walks
her halfway

TLC: What I read somewhere was that she walked to within 500 metres of Meredith's home (the cottage).
_________________________________________________________________________________________

21.05: Sophie Purton leaves Meredith on Via Roscetto, Meredith continues home alone

TLC: Yes
_______________________________________________________________________________________

21.15: Around this time MK arrives home

TLC: I don't know about that, if (IF) it was 500 metres, then I don't think it would have taken 10 minutes, but yes, then, 'roughly' that time (depends on how fast she was walking).
_____________________________________________________________________________________

21.30: Meredith commences phone call with mother (What time did it end?)

TLC: I don't know but I think Meredith's mother will remember how long she spoke to her daughter for.

Meredith's mother would have been saying "Don't stay too long on the phone Meredith, or it'll cost you a fortune."

I know this because I'm not living in my home land right now and we always say things like this, because, some calls, one forgets that it is at international rates and it can get really expensive if you act as if you are around the corner or calling locally.
________________________________________________________________________________________

22.15: call made from MK's mobile to a service advising phone credit
balance.

TLC: So Meredith was still alive at this time.
________________________________________________________________________________________
22.30: “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost
knocked over by a black man running away from scene”

TLC: Yes, if that person had anything to do with the crime (murder with aggravated circumstances) then it seems he was running after the criminal ACTS committed.

But, there is no evidence yet, as far as is known to us, that it was someone who had to do with the act of murder.

It does seem that if it was right there and was, as you state, running from the scene of the crime and not just running in the general area, then that it would be quite likely that it was someone running away from that house because of the crimes committed there.

But to say, 'There are not that many black people in Perugia and is it coincidence that a black man was seen running from there, it could have been any black man'

is a hard thing to make one's mind up about.

it might have been Guede it might have just been a black man running.

Without evidence on that, to say it must have been Guede is to discriminate on racial grounds.

Because, if I am visiting the Congo, and I am out one evening, a girl gets murdered, then I get hauled in just because I am white, and they then say, "Well, because you are white, it must have been you, because there are not many whites around here,"

then that would mean they'd be discriminating on racial grounds, namely; COLOUR.

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Beep:

I believe that Meredith Kercher was stabbed to death sometime between 9:30 and 10:30 pm; independent of what the prosecutors are saying.

TLC: That is your right, to make your mind up, without having access to the full spectrum of evidence, as is available to the public prosecutor.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Beep: Would you agree or disagree with this assumption (as ABOVE) ?

TLC: No, I cannot agree with that assumption because concrete evidence on who that person was running away is not available to me, even to the person who saw him running, the evidence is not absolutely 100%.

I can agree that it is a possible realistic possibility as goes sequence of events, but I cannot assume it as though it were fact without concrete evidence.

All as that person knows is that it was a black person and that it is very strange that he was almost knocked over by him, and that it is indeed a rather big coincidence that around that time in the immediate vicinity a young girl by the name of Meredith Kercher lost her life, that (witness) person did not know who it was running, or why he was running.

I must say, that considering it is not Brixton in London where thousands of black people live and considering it isn't Atlanta Georgia then where a black person was running right there that night and nearly knocked a person over, it is a highly suspicious event and may be highly relevant and vital to everything, including your timelines.

I can't say for 'sure' one way or the other.

I can 'assume' it had something to do with it, based on geographics (area/immediate vicinity) and based on populace, where there are not thousands or even hundreds of black people in Perugia.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Beep: Please keep in mind that in a way, I am going to try and lead you on a path of questions and this is the very first one. I cannot proceed forward with my line of questioning, should you find yourself in basic disagreement with this basic assumption of mine.

TLC: I think you can still say what you think Beep, I don't think you will get everyone to agree to your ideas exactly the way you see them.

Still, you can continue to lay out what you think and feel, offer your insights and perhaps someone else will agree with you because I'm not the only one here of course, and my vision is not uniquely important or vital, my ideas may be incorrect.

I'd keep on, saying what you mean.

In no way do I think I can say, I believe a thing independent of what the prosecutor is saying, I mean I cannot disregard his vision.

I think that person knows far more than I do, so I must take him very seriously.

Contrary to rumour and negative speculation the guy did not get to where he got through being a simpleton or a yo -yo.

He is skilled in what he does and I definitely believe that, I believe he knows what he says and why he says it, he is not a child or a kid either, he looks like he has plenty of life experience to me.

I can follow your line of reasoning but to actually take it on and believe that too, that the time of death must have been between those times you mentioned because of the person running away, I don't think that is realistic because it could have been anyone running, unless those people saw the black person come running out of the front door or the garden gate of the cottage.

Based on the idea that the person running DID have everything to do with the crime, then I can insert your timeline of time of death as realistic, but you can only add it hypothetically, until there is sound evidence that is brought to light. It is not a definite thing right now. But do continue with wherever it is you are going to. I am sure it all makes a lot of sense based on your grounding it on the available facts as you know them.

Is my opinion anyway.

So please proceed.
You are thinking well, I think because you are being realistic basing it on the only things known factually. I understand what you are saying.

You may be exactly right Beep, as it turns out in the end.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Beam me up Scotty!

TLC,

Okay, good response. I have to rethink about all of what you said here; all good thoughts of course. The assumption that I was making is of course, a leap of faith; that it was Rudy Guede who was the person running from the house at 10:30 pm. In all probability, it was most likely him, but until we have solid proof as you said, we cannot make that assumption. I will rethink my line of thinking; and I knew that you might catch me on this assumption by the way. I would have proceeded forward, however, in my mind, I would always be realizing that it would be a weak link in the chain of events, so to speak.

Soozie UK,

Je vous aime beaucoup! (I love you lots!) You are so right about the editing capability here too.

Thanks Beeop a kind reply from you.

I like and appreciate how you are trying to keep it all down to earth trying to reasion things out based on real physical evidence.


The thing that scares me, is the lengths some have gone in concealing truth, then what they left us is not enough and we must see through them, based on what you are studying on solid facts as known, and common sense, I think we can go far.

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