The True Crime Weblog Message Board

Anyone who cares to work on a Timeline of this case can post here. Timelines are very helpful to any true crime discussion.

A rudimentary beginning might be:

1 November 2007: Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, age 21, is murdered some time between 20:30 and 23:00.

A proper timeline can have events added before the above and after.

Have at it.

Steve

Oh, I must have made a mistake, as I posted my suggestion for the timeline in the general category. Sorry, and don't know how to copy it here yet, and must run. thanks.

I think a new timeline would be helpful, along the lines suggested by May in the general category. Are there any volunteers out there? Someone who is good at this sort of work? I started one in excel format, but then realized why I hate excel so much and abandoned the task.
Michael has worked with the original one compiled by Xin. Would that be the place to start?
It would be nice to have a timeline where we could move events from tentative to certain or to the dustbin over time.

Hi Skep, Just a quick reply, as this says. I wrote another on borrowed time and lost it before it loaded. So...

I can help out later if we can come up with an agreeable format. but not until later in the week. I bet that the color (think most color blind people read colors and black or white), can be saved in the html format of the 'preview' pane. Not sure, thought some trial and error might be helpful.

must run now,

Hi May.
I don't think there's any hurry and your idea is a good one. Maybe we can combine color and the use of columns or something.
Let's think about the format.
I have to say again how much I loved your ppt presentation. It made me laugh and think--what's not to like about that?

[font=Century Gothic]May, I agree with Skep, and others. Your ppt is awesome! You're quite creative.

I like your color coded time line idea as well, but I wonder how this would work in instances where there is more than one person involved @ a specific point? I guess just note it twice? [/font]

Thanks for the input on the timeline, Stacey. I think we need to think about all of these aspects. In fact, your concern is why I started with an excel format. I gladly defer to anyone with more graphic skills than I have, which is just about everyone.

[align=center]COMPREHENSIVE TIMELINE*[/align]


[align=center](EDIT: Michael, Oct 4th - Changed Nov 2nd 1235 entry for the arrival of the Postal Police to the now confirmed 1226.)

IMPORTANT NOTE: As of now, 4th Oct 2008 I shall no longer be updating this Timeline posted on the True Crime Message Board. The maintained Timeline from this point hence resides on the Perugia Murder File forum here: http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org ... nipost.gif[/align]


1300 AK saw MK at their apartment (per AK)

1400 -1500 MK left

1530 Sophie Purton arrives at Robyn Butterworth's flat at Via Bontempi 22

1600 Meredith arrives at Robyn Butterworth's flat

1700 AK, RS went to his apartment (per AK)

1800 Meredith had a meal with her girlfriends "Ms Kercher was known to have eaten an early supper of pizza and ice cream with two British women friends, both fellow students, at six o’clock on the evening of her death. But Sophie Purton, one of the friends, had testified that the meal contained no mushrooms."

1800 AK, RS left her apartment (per RS)

1836 RS at his computer, had watched 'Amelie' whilst also downloading the film 'Stardust' to watch later, would be at his computer until 0333 - (per RS & his lawyers). “He was with AK until 1800 when they had both left RS apartment to go into the centre. RS has also said that he spent the evening on his computer working on his university coursework

2018 Patrick sends text message to AK

2030 Patrick's friend, Swiss Professor Roman Mero had a pizza and then went straight to Le Chic. (had originally claimed he was in Le Chic from 2000)

2030 - 2100 RS "Went home, smoked; had dinner."

2030 – 2100 (AK “left him (per RS), saying to him that she would go to Le
Chic, meet friends while he returned to his house”) “… left the
house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, [but she], she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”

2035 AK text message to PL

2038 RG arrives at MK's (per RG)

2038 PL's cellphone pings in the area of MK’s house

2040** RS's father phones him at his apartment on RS's landline, the call went unanswered and instead went to answer phone. RS did not respond to the message and return his father's call that night

2040** Young woman, Popovic (Polish after all (?)), arrives at RS's house to tell him she no longer needed a lift to the station. (She spoke to Amanda via the intercom (?) )

2040** Serbian student, Jovanovic, 'met' (Could do with clarification as to whether he simply passed AK, or actually engaged with her in some way). AK on Corso Garibaldi. AK and RS were at RS's flat at this time and before (per AK/RS)

2040** AK and RS cell phones turned off

2043 AK seen on CCTV entering her house (?)

2046 Meredith arrives eight minutes after RG arrives (per RG)

2050 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir
fry them (per Mignini)

2100 AK claimed to meet PL at B-Ball courts and [return] to her house. (per the Judge)

2100 Meredith leaves friend’s house with Sophie Purton to return home, Sophie walks her halfway

2105 Sophie Purton leaves Meredith on Via Roscetto, Meredith continues home alone

2110 Click on RS's computer, no more activity on computer until following day

2115 Around this time MK arrives home

2130 Meredith commences phone call with mother (What time did it end?)

2141 - 0532 of the night of the crime "is not any human interaction.
at RS apt" (per RS' computer)

2200 - 2230 Meredith is either dead or dying. A breakdown truck arrives for a broken down car containing a family of three, man, woman and child. The Albanian 'superwitness', Hekuran Kokomani, arrives by car at the rubbish bins area a short way down the road from the cottage. HK punches RS, throws a phone and olives at AK, who threatens HK with knife. HK drives further down the road encountering RG who recognises HK and offers money to hire HK's car, first 50, then offering 250 euros. HK hears banging sounding like 'wood on wood' from the house. RG says there is a birthday party at the cottage. HK refuses hire his car, driving off having seen RS in his wing mirror running at him with knife. RS persues him to the lights, where a motorist asks HK for directions. HK has to reverse his car to allow the breakdown truck, which is probably just arriving, to manoeuvre. HK leaves (per HK)

2215 SMS requesting account balance sent from MK's mobile to her bank
balance

2229 First recorded receipts at Le Chic

2230 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost
knocked over by a black man running away from scene”. The couple also witness the broken down car and breakdown truck.

2300 (circa) Nara Capezalli, the woman who lives opposite MK's, hears screams coming from the house after which "at least two people" emerged and fled "in different directions"

2300 - 0100 RS claims he’s on Internet at his home

23.00 (later than): AK and RS are seen on the baseball court by a sixty-year-old witness, 'Toto' (Antonio Curatolo), cuddling, behaving erratically, and looking towards the house

24.00 (shortly before) AK and RS go down in the direction of the house (possibly joined by a third person ?)

0100 AK at RS’s apt (?)

0200 Passers-by report loud voices from AK/MK home

0333 RS comes off of his computer and goes to bed, Amanda is 'not' there (per RS & his lawyers)

0532 Internet activity noted at RS’s computer, (Googling 'Bleach' & 'Blood' perhaps ?). Phones turned back on

'Dawn' Mobile phones switched back on (Would be great to have an actual time for this event!)

0830 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market) - RS/AK in bed (per RS/AK)

0915 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market) - RS/AK in bed (per RS/AK)

1000 Woke up at RS’s in morning (per RS)

1030 AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag (per RS)

1100 AK was back at her house (per AK)

1130 AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open (per RS). Back to AK’s together. AK opens door with keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom. Attempted to break down Meredith's door (per RS)

0900 -1200 Sig.na Lana finds two phones in her garden and notify police, who ascertain that one is registered to Filomena Romanelli at via della Pergola

1226 "Today it was confirmed that the garage video recorded the car of the postal police arriving at 12.26..." and find AK and RS outside (but within the gate), who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri

1235 Filomena receives phonecall from AK "who told me that she had slept at Raffaele's house and that when she had gone back to out house she had found the door open and blood in her bathroom. She told me that she'd had a shower, that she was scared and that she was going to call Raffaele Sollecito. It seemed really strange to me and I asked her to check that the house was in order and to call the police or Carabinieri."

1235 - 1245 Second phone conversation between AK and FR

1245 Third phone conversation between AK and FR "she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had."

1200 - 1300 RS phones his sister

1251 RS phones the Carabinieri (for the first time)

1254 RS phones the Carabinieri again

1300 (just before) PG arrives at cottage where M was present and "Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves."

1300 Filomena Romanelli arrives at apartment with her friends PA and LA 'Luca'

1315 (circa) After listening to Filomena's remarks, with Postal Police present, LA breaks down door of MK's room


*Timeline Template originally constructed by Xin and taken from Haloscan II. It has since been edited by myself (Michael), edit content deriving from various blogmenters on Haloscan, Frank at Perugia Shock, Kermit's powerpoints, media reports and Judge's reports. This Timeline is open to continued modification by myself (as original poster), Administrators and Moderators. Please post your suggestions for edits/modifications/additions or any queries in this thread. Alternatively, if you are shy, please feel free to send me (Michael) a PM using the Message Board's built in Message Centre.

**These times must be very approximate since the 20:40 time slot is 'very' congested.

This is simply a test to establish whether it's possible here to edit posts after one has made them.

If it is, I will post a timeline (which will include only verified or possibly verifiable information; i.e. nothing from the testimonies of any of the three suspects).

What follows is simply part of my test.

She sees a mob of metaphors advance,
Pleased with the madness of the mazy dance;
How Tragedy and Comedy embrace;
How Farce and Epic get a jumbled race;
How Time himself stands still at her command,
Realms shift their place, and ocean turns to land.
Here gay description Egypt glads with showers,
Or gives to Zembla fruits, to Barca flowers;
Glittering with ice here hoary hills are seen,
There painted valleys of eternal green;
In cold December fragrant chaplets blow,
And heavy harvests nod beneath the snow.

It works (but alas doesn't give the date on which it was changed, as happens on some forums).

My intention is this: to provide a timeline in two postings in which only evidence from third parties which may be verifiable (and probably already has been by the investigators) is included. Where I am doubtful, I have used square brackets. My own comments are in round brackets. I may come back and add my sources. I will certainly refine the content via the edit function whenever I find, or have my attention, drawn, to useful things.

Michael's timeline is very useful, and I see with some pleasure that he has taken over several of my comments. But by including evidence from the suspects, it gets a bit noisy. This is an attempt to provide a lean and fit timeline. It will include things that are as yet uncertain; but only those about which certainty will emerge at the trial.

I will do two posts:

1: 31st October - 1st November.
2. 2nd November

And then a third post, in which I follow the press reports and detail what we know about how the investigation has proceeded insofar as we know that from the media.

Updated 24 April; changes/additions in blue


29th October

MK withdraws 250 from a bancomat


31st October (Halowe’en)

Time? [An Albanian encounters three people in Halowe’en fancy dress near the garbage cans on via della Pergola, whom he identifies as RS, AK and RG and who threaten him with a knife. (This witness may be 1. Lying; 2. Faux-naïf; 3. Vrai-naïf, insofar as he doesn’t know about Halowe’en pranks).


1st November (Ognisanti)

15.30 Sophie Purton arrives at Robyn Butterworth's flat at via Bontempi

16.00 MK arrives at Robyn Butterworth's flat

17.45 [Polish student may have seen AK and RS in RS’s house]

20.18 [PL texts message to AK telling her not to come to work (this seems reliable, though the exact times, and who initiated the exchange, is not certain)]

2030 – 21.30 Swiss Professor Romano Mero had a pizza and then went to Le Chic (was once reported to have been in Le Chic from 20.00)

20.35 AK texts PL message that ends with something along the lines of ‘c u l8r’.

20.38 PL cellphone pings in area of MK’s house/piazza Grimana.

20.40 Female student comes to RS's house to tell him she won't need a lift to the station. He is at home. (why didn't she phone? or did she live in the same building?)

20.40 Jovanovic sees AK on Corso Garibaldi

20.40 AK and RS both turn cell-phones off (in Matteini's 9 nov. report this is 'around 21.00'; in the SC justification it is specified as 20.40)

20.40 RS's father calls his landline; no reply (according to SC)

20.43 [AK seen on CCTV entering her house ?? (doubts have been thrown on this)]

21.00 Having eaten (when? important for determining TOD) MK leaves Butterworth’s flat with Sophie Purton. She had drunk no alcohol and eaten no mushrooms.

21.05 Sophie Purton leaves Meredith on Via Roscetto.

21.10 Last recorded click on RS's computer; no more activity on computer until 05.32

21.15 (circa) MK arrives home

21.30 MK phones mother.

21.15-23.30 A tiny piece of mushroom enters AK's oesophagus; it comes either from her stomach and was thus ingested after 21.15; or it comes from the point of the knife that pierced the oesophagus, i.e. the principal weapon.

21.30-23.30 MK is murdered.

22.15 [around] SMS sent from MK's mobile to her bank; the connection lasts 8 seconds (this is probably from her English mobile, not the one registered to Filomena).

22.29 First recorded fiscal receipts at Le Chic

22.30 CCTV at the car park records a man walking rapidly away from the house (Telegraph 12 Nov; there thought to be connected to the laundrette north-african, but later identified as RG)

22.30 Alessandra Formica and boyfriend see a black man running through Piazza Grimana

22.00 – 05.00 Nara Capezalli [she had gone to bed and had got up to pee; when did she go to bed?] hears screams after which "at least two people" emerged and fled "in different directions".

23.00 [RS’s father did not call RS’s landline; that was at 20.40 according to SC]

23.00 (later than): Toto Curato sees AK and RS at the baseball pitch cuddling, behaving erratically, and looking towards the house

24.00 (shortly before) According to Toto, AK and RS go down in the direction of the house (possibly joined by a third person [?])

when? after 24.00? RG is seen by a witness at Domus (?a pub or a disco?)[color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color]

2nd November (Ognimorti)

24.05 MK's "other mobile" rings (i.e the one that didn't send the SMS at 22.15, and thus most probably her Italian one)

02.00 A witness heard loud voices coming from the house (screams according to http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo_app ... =In_Italia)

05.32 Activity noted at RS’s computer

05.32 Both phones turned back on (at dawn)

08.30 A till-receipt indicates that bleach was sold at supermarket near RS’s flat (it is not known to whom)

09.15 Bleach was sold at supermarket near RS’s flat (it is not known to whom)

09.00-12.00 Sig.na Lana finds two phones in her garden and notifies police, who ascertain that one is registered to Filomena Romanelli at via della Pergola

12.35 Postal police arrive at house, and find AK and RS outside (but within the gate), who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri; they notice that the washing machine is active.

12.00-13.00 RS phones his sister.

12.51 RS phones the Carabinieri (for the first time)

12.54 RS phones the Carabinieri again

13.00 Filomena Romanelli arrives at apartment; she says there is nothing missing (i.e. no signs of theft)

13.15 (circa) After listening to Filomena's remarks, Postal Police break down door into MK's room. AK is not in a position to see inside.

13.20 (circa) The Squadra Mobile arrive after being alerted by the postal police; the washing machine is ending its cycle as they arrive. It is later found to contain MK's bloodstained clothes which had undergone a hefty wash.

Minotaur wrote:It works (but alas doesn't give the date on which it was changed, as happens on some forums).

Hi Minotaur...that is why when editing a doc/post it is good to place a note at the bottom someting along the lines of - EDIT: Michael, 14th Jan 2001, Information Addition.

Friday 2nd November: Afternoon/evening

RS is questioned

AK is questioned

Sophie Purton is questioned

Robyn Butterworth is questioned.

Filomena is questioned.

Giacomo Silenzi is questioned.

AK accurately describes to Robyn Butterworth the position of MK's corpse

[Lots of other people are questioned]


Friday 2nd November[?When; How?]

RG announces to friends that he is going North in order to dance (Corriere, 19th and 21st Nov]


Saturday 3rd November

Two ‘ragazzi’ are questioned, who had seen strange behaviour on the part of an olive-skinned magebino at a laundrette (a.o.t. washing a pair of blue nikes) on Friday 2nd at 13.30.

Giacomo Silenzi (from downstairs) is questioned: he says everybody at the house, including MK, smoked hash and drank, but didn’t use stronger drugs. The boys used to buy the hash from street-dealers in piazza 9novembre; it was they who usually gave them to the girls, and he doesn’t know if the girls bought any for themselves. The girls often came home drunk.

Hisham Khiri is questioned: He recounts an occasion when Sophie Purton got so drunk that MK had to ask him to help her home.

23.10 Sophie Purton is questioned again. She tells police that MK had said that AK had brought back men to the house, including a strange one who frequented an internet café; and others as Spyros and ‘Daniele from Rome’.


Sunday 4th November

An autopsy lasting seven hours is done by Luca Lalli

14.45 AK is questioned (again). She identifies the Internet-café man as an Argentinian named Juve. She confirms having taken Spyros and Daniele into the house.

16.00 Stefano Bonassi is questioned: He was visited twice by a friend from Rome, Daniele da Luna, and on the second occasion Daniele went upstairs and had sex with AK.

He also says that: ‘Frequentava la nostra casa un ragazzo soprannominato il barone, palestrato, di origine sudafricana. Una sera l'ho trovato a casa mia con i miei amici. Era molto ubriaco e ha dormito sul water. Aveva un'attrazione fisica per Amanda’ (Corriere, 19th nov: NB it is clear that the Corriere had a copy of Bonassi’s 4 Nov verbali much earlier; the Corriere had clearly been leaked almost all the verbali of 2-4th November at an early date).
[This basketballing ‘sudafricano’ is (how; when?) identified as RG, whose fingerprints were on record. They are found to match fingerprints at the crime scene.]


Monday 5th November

17.00 RS and AK are brought in for questioning

22.40 RS is questioned again: "5 novembre alle ore 22.40 viene di nuovo sentito RS" (Matteini report)


Tuesday 5th November

01.45 and again at 05.45 AK is being questioned. At 05.45 she implicates PL

Early morning: AK and RS no lose status of potential witnesses and ‘gain’ status of suspects. They are taken into custody. RS’s pocket-knife is confiscated. (Matteini's report says, while referring to AK's questionings 'E in questo momento che AK e RS perdono la loro veste die persone informate sui fatti per essere stessi indagati"; but it doesn't specify which momento. According to Frank's translation of the SC's ruling, it was the statements made at 01.45 that turned AK into a suspect. Because of that the voluntary statements made at 05.45 without legal representation, cannot be used against her or any other suspects).

Evening AK writes a memoir in English and presents it to investigators. It is transcribed in full, with spelling mistakes, at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... xml&page=1 (Question: had she in the meantime seen a lawyer who advised her to do this?


Tuesday 6th and Weds 7th Nov.

A thorough site-investigation (including luminol) of RS’s appartment is done. A pair of Nike trainers, a kitchen knife and a second pocket-knife are removed for further analysis. Two empty bottles of bleach are found, of a type that his cleaner denies having used there. The video taken on this occasion shows a Harry Potter book (language unknown)

Filomena and Laura are shown the kitchen-knife; they deny ever having seen it at via della Pergola.


Thursday 8th November

Lalli submits in writing the preliminary findings of the autopsy. TOD is estimated to between 21.30 and 23.30; but if MK had eaten before 21, that could be brought back to between 20.30 and 22.30. There is no sign of rape; but there are signs of consensual sexual activity up to a day or so before her death.


Friday 9th November

0.9.35: Claudia Matteini signs her decision that AK, PL and RS should all remain in custody.

The Corriere reports that 120 useful traces have been found at the house, about 40 of which belong to the inhabitants or frequent vistitors, and 80 of which haven’t been identified. Nothing from PL has been found..

11th November

The Swiss professor is questioned from 19.00 to 01.00.

[RG’s mobile was in Milan on this day, when someone tried to ring him; (corriere 19 nov)]

.
12th November[/b]

The Corriere reports Amanda having been filmed, wearing a light-coloured dress and alone, at 8.43 on 1 November by the CCTV monitor at the parking area. Tests have shown that dark people may not have registered. A man passing at 02.00 on the night of the murder heard loud voices from the house.

The Telegraph reports hunt for 4th suspect, a north-african musician caught on car-park TV cameras and whose fingerprints were at the crime scene. (Amazingly, the Telegraph was a week ahead of the Italian press with this story!)


13th November

Corriere reports no traces of blood on shoes or knife removed from RS’s house.


16 November

RS’s lawyers contest the custodial order.


19th November

The Italian press (Corriere, rapidly followed by others) reports that a fourth suspect, an Ivorian basketballer called ‘RH’, has been sought ‘for several days’, after his fingerprints were found to match those at the house. He is later the same day named as RHG, and his identity card is published. He had committed at petty crime in Milan toward the end of October; and is known to have been there in the days immediately after the murder.

It was only this morning (19th November, according to the Corriere) that the headquarters of the Postal Police in Rome got hold of the actual records of the telephonic communications between AK and PL(!). [I don’t think the final outcome of this was ever leaked, though Frank has some useful observations about them (M).]

20th November

RG arrested in Germany. Up to the time of his arrest he had access to everything reported in the media. He even contacted the Daily Telegraph after his name had been released.

2nd December

Media report that AK had withdrawn 250 euros which had disappeared.[color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color]

Minotaur.....very helpful! Thank you.

Oops! Yours is very helpful as well, Michael. (Meant to have your name included in the above post with Minotaur). Thank you!

Minotaur...do you have the date RS changed his alibi?

Minotaur wrote:This basketballing ‘sudafricano’ is (how; when?) identified as RG, whose fingerprints were on record for petty drug crimes. They are found to match fingerprints at the crime scene.

I would question this. According to RG he had never been taken down the police station for anything other then being caught in the kindergaten (since he was effectively telling this to the police it would be strange for him to lie about that) and down the police station is the only place fingerprints would be taken in a criminal setting. I believe his fingerprints were in actual fact lifted from his visa application.

Hi Minotaur, Thanks to you and to Michael for the time-lines. Different and helpful. Have you thought of putting in the telephone call Amanda's mother received, from AK? Or did I miss it? thanks again for the continuation of the information past the events of the two days. Good idea.

May wrote:Hi Minotaur, Thanks to you and to Michael for the time-lines. Different and helpful. Have you thought of putting in the telephone call Amanda's mother received, from AK? Or did I miss it? thanks again for the continuation of the information past the events of the two days. Good idea.

Hi May . Do you have the time for that?

That's great work on the timeline.

I've been thinking about the translations of the court dialogs that have recently appeared on Frank's Perugia blog, and how this fits in with what we know of the interrogations of November 5th/6th. There has been a lot of controversy about the interrogation of Amanda Knox, in particular - allegations that she was beaten, or that it lasted fourteen hours without a break, and so on.

This is what I think happened:

Sunday 4th November

According to Frank Peurgia, the police tapped the following phone conversation between Raffaele and his father.

Franco Sollecito: Rafe, do me a favour, tomorrow don't go to Questura with the knife in your pocket.
Raffaele Sollecito: It's ok dad, don't worry, those assholes are not even going to realize that.

Monday 5th November.

1700: Sollecito and Knox are again taken in for questioning. Sollecito goes first, and Knox has to wait.

Sollecito's Questioning Part One

Sollecito is again asked questions about what he did on Thursday night, and who with.

(It's worth remembering that he's already told more than one version of what happened, even before this interrogation begins. For example, he had originally told a reporter that he and Knox were out at a party all night.)

His version probably goes something like this: I took an early evening walk into Perugia with Amanda Knox, then we went back to my place and watched Amelie. It's hard to remember the details of what we did after that, but we were on the internet for a while. The pipes broke while I was washing the dishes. My dad phoned me around 2300. We slept until around 1000 the following morning, which is when Amanda went to her place to bring a mop and to take a shower. That's when she found the body. It's hard to be clear about details, because to be honest, we took a lot of drugs all that day.

In reply to this, the police ask him a lot of questions about the details of this story (along the lines of "Did you make love?" "Can't remember" and so on. He is hazy about the details, and puts this haziness down to drug use.)

The police also tell him that they have proof that Amanda Knox entered the cottage on Thursday evening. They are probably thinking about the CCTV footage dated 2043 - they may or may not specify this to Sollecito.

The turning point
At some point, it becomes clear to him that this alibi isn't working, so he admits that it is "un sacco di cazzate". He says that Amanda Knox asked him to invent the story in order to cover for her and that he did not think about the contradictions. He asks to start again.

Sollecito's Questioning Part Two

Now he says that Amanda went out on Thursday evening. He denies that she told him she did not have to go to work that evening. (This might be significant - the police are thinking about text messages between Knox and Lumumba which the two of them claim to be about Le Chic being quiet and so there's no need to come to work.) Sollecito stayed at home working on his computer. Knox returned later; he still can't remember if they made love, but they woke up around 1000.

This interrogation ends around 2240, and Sollecito is now a suspect, not a witness. Presumably this is when they fingerprint/photograph him, and go through the red tape that you go through with suspects. It is probably the point where they take his knife from him, too.

Amanda Knox's Questioning Part One: 2240-0145

2240 (or shortly afterwards) Amanda Knox's interrogation begins.

She's now being interrogated on the basis that her boyfriend's alibi not only contradicts hers, but sends her out into the streets of Perugia just before the murder takes place.

[I think you can make a fair case for saying her status should have been changed from "witness" to "suspect" at the beginning of this interrogation, not the end.]

The police ask her a lot of hard questions about the details of her story.
They tell her that Sollecito no longer supports her alibi.
They tell her that they have proof that she entered the cottage that evening. (Again, they are probably thinking about the CCTV, but they don't specify this to Knox.)
They ask her about her text messages with Lumumba. ("What did you mean by 'ci vediamo'?")

How does Amanda reply? The Cassazione ruled that, whatever it was, it can't be entered into the record because she had no lawyer present. But according to Frank Perugia Shock: her statements where "a chaos" so it appeared clear to them that she knew what happened and she was trying to hide it. And they stated her "indagata".

According to Chris Mellas, Amanda Knox was repeatedly hit during this interrogation, and "there is a complaint filed with the police about this".

Tuesday 6th November

0145 They stop interrogating Amanda, as she's now officially a suspect. She is presumably fingerprinted and photographed and so on.

Amanda Knox's Questioning the Interval: 0145-0545

Damian has this to say about these four hours:

What happened during this long pause? Here are three possibilities;
1. A long coffee break
2. A lawyer 'di ufficio' was nominated and they waited for the arrival of this person.
3. The PM asked Mateini '...dilazionare, per un tempo non superiore a cinque giorni, l'esercizio del diritto di conferire con il difensore.' (CPP 104) This means the pm can ask the judge to postpone the suspect's meeting with their lawyer for up to 5 days. He must explain why and he must receive the go-ahead from the judge.

It seems that there no lawyer had arrived by 0545, though, when Knox's questioning began again - apparently at her own request.

Minotaur's theory sounds quite plausible: at 0145, Amanda Knox is made a suspect. The police begin the bureaucratic process of processing her and Sollecito as suspects, transcribing interviews, applying for search warrants, and so on. At 0545, Amanda asks to talk to them again. There is no lawyer present yet, but the investigators agree to listen to her anyway. It's a fateful decision for them, for Amanda Knox, and not least for Patrick Lumumba, who is later arrested on the strength of this "confession" made by a suspect without a lawyer.

Amanda Knox's Questioning Part Two: from 0545

0545 Amanda Knox now makes what the court later calls spontaneous declarations. In other words, she asks to be able to talk to the police. (She probably does not have a di ufficio lawyer at this point: see above.)

This is where the Corriere della Sera reports: Il racconto della giovane statunitense comincia alle 5.45 di ieri mattina. «Voglio riferire spontaneamente quello che è successo perché questa vicenda mi ha turbata profondamente e ho molta paura di Patrick, il ragazzo africano proprietario del pub Le Chic dove lavoro saltuariamente. L'ho incontrato la sera del primo novembre dopo avergli mandato un messaggio di risposta al suo, con le parole "ci vediamo". Ci siamo incontrati intorno alle 21 al campetto di basket di piazza Grimana e siamo andati a casa mia. Non ricordo se la mia amica Meredith fosse già a casa o se è giunta dopo. Quello che posso dire è che si sono appartati».

"This whole thing has got me really confused but I'm really scared of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub where I sometimes work. I met him on November 1st after sending him a message in answer to one of his, in which I said, 'Ci vediamo'."

And so on. If the Corriere is correct, then this she is making quite a detailed and unequivocal accusation of Patrick early on the Tuesday morning. But she's making it without a lawyer, and she's a suspect - which means, according to the Cassazione in April 2008, that these accusations can be used against others, but not against herself.

Amanda Knox's Questioning Part Three: her written statement

As the day continues, she moves away from those accusations. She asks for pen and paper. (Note: I think this is probably still without a lawyer, although Minotaur and others think the opposite, that this was an attempt by lawyers to redress some of the damage of her previous statement.) She attempts to write down her version of events. This is apparently given to the police on the "evening" of November 6th.

You can read a full transcript of her note here. According to the press, this was given to the police on the evening of Tuesday November 6th. Presumably she would have been given a lawyer as early as possible that day, which would support Minotaur's analysis that it was probably written with the support of a lawyer. However, although I accept this as a possibility, I'm not convinced - it's hard for me to understand why a lawyer would think that this statement could help her case, and her lawyers have never sought to refer to it in her defense since then. They haven't mentioned its allegations of being beaten, for one thing, and their position is one that - since she's had legal advice - she has consistently maintained being at home with Raffaele at his apartment.

Key points from this transcript:
* She denies sending a message to Lumumba asking to see him immediately. She goes back to the story (that Lumumba in fact corroborates) that she was just responding to him telling her not to come into work because the pub was quiet. (And we know precisely how quiet it was, from Lumumba's search for witnesses to support his own alibi.)
* She claims to have watched Amelie with Raffaele at his place, between 1700 and 2030.
* The following period of time is "rather strange". It involves smoking marijuana, relaxing, possibly checking emails. It definitely ("one thing I do remember") involves showering and Sollecito cleaning her ears, (although "in truth, I do not remember exactly what day it was".)
* She and Raffaele definitely ate late, probably around eleven. There was blood on Raffaele's hands which she thought must have come from the fish. (There is corroborating evidence to confirm that Raffaele is indeed a spectactularly clumsy cook. )
* After the meal, Sollecito washed the dishes, the pipes broke and flooded the kitchen, and she told him that in the morning she would bring a mop from the cottage to clean this up.
* They were very tired, went to sleep and woke up around 1000 the following day.

With regard to Patrick, she repeats some of the images from her earlier accusation ("In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer"), but qualifies them: "I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked".

Note: On the Haloscan blog, Chris Mellas has stated that Amanda had no lawyer for any of this interrogation (neither Part One, Two nor Three.)

FinnMac, Minotaur, I think I was wrong about her having a lawyer at 05'45. It was my logic getting carried away. I think the time the lawyer di ufficio arrived is very important and the fact that one wasn't present at 05'45 was a big mistake.

[I think you can make a fair case for saying her status should have been changed from "witness" to "suspect" at the beginning of this interrogation, not the end.]

The only thing I would question is how she could have been a suspect at the beginning, based only on Sollecito's change of story. Wouldn't she at least have been questioned initially as a witness on these problematic points to give her a chance to clear them up? In reality, both were probably far along the slippery slope to suspecthood when they were taken in for questioning that day. What time were they taken in?

Thanks, Damian - I've revised it in the light of your comment, and taking into account Minotaur's guess about the 0545 interview, which I think sounds quite plausible.

Skep, I agree with what you say about the suspect transition.

I think that they were taken in at 1700 on the Monday, but I can't remember where I've got that from. It might be wrong. Certainly it was a scheduled interview - we have the evidence of the Sollecitos' conversation ("do me a favor when you go to the Questura tomorrow...") for that.

Looking at it from Amanda's point of view, this means waiting around for six hours, from five till eleven at night, wondering what the hell Raffaele is saying. It's already feeling more serious than previous questionings.

Then she is taken in and told that Raffaele no longer supports her alibi. The police have proof that she entered the cottage before nine that evening. They ask her questions about her alibi, about a text message to/from Lumumba, about a mop.

Her responses are, according to Frank, "a chaos". (And according to Chris Mellas, this would be when she was hit by one of the two women photographed holding her when she was arrested.)

After a three hour interrogation, she then has another four hours to wait before she comes up with the disastrous declarations of 0545.

Later that day, she makes a written attempt to draw back from those declarations.

In the meantime, her mom arrives from Seattle. She fires the di ufficio lawyer and finds a couple of good lawyers, whom Amanda will have to formally request by telegram.

And all of that must take a lot of time, but how much, I'm not sure. By Thursday, Luciano Ghirga is representing Amanda Knox at the hearing.

Finn MacCool,
This question of when the status changed from person informed to suspect has intrigued me from the start. I think, but am not sure, that if correct procedure had not been followed, this would have been reviewed by the courts. I've been trying to locate information on this specific point, but so far have gotten no further than the fact that it is a key point in the Italian criminal justice system. If the investigators felt they were "closing in," maybe they had already contacted an appointed attorney to be ready just in case. I'm thinking they did not expect their questioning to yield results so quickly. Maybe they were surprised at how quickly RS gave AK up?
If we could locate the footage showing AK and RS (I believe it was both of them) inside a car as they are being taken in for questioning on Nov 5th, we might get a time and date stamp. I have seen no written reference to this, however. From the footage I saw, it looked like there was still some daylight, so your 5 pm time could be about right.

Does anyone know offhand?

THE MOP

The mop makes its first (Anglophone) public appearance on 11th November when The Mirror’s Kate Mansell (yes, sorry about that) says: ‘The suspects used a mop and bucket to clean up the murder scene which Knox, an American, hid at her Sollecito's house after the killing’. (Almost everything in Ms Mansell’s article is wrong, including the last part of this sentence.)

Also on 11th November, Dr Franco Sollecito, renowned urologist, appeared on Matrix and said: "The day before the 'case', Rapphaele's flat was flooded, he had a problem with the sink. He was trying to mop it up, but Ammanda told him to leave it since she had a 'special mop' which would sort it in no time. She went to her house to get it. They cleared up the mess and when they went back the next day, to take the 'special mop' back, they found what they found.' (This is from the invaluable Damian’s account of watching that programme, posted on HaloI)

From AK’s ‘prison diary’: “After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).

From RS’s ‘prison diary’: Era [AK, on her return from the house the next morning] pulita e mi aveva portato un mocio Vileda per aiutarmi ad asciugare per terra vicino al lavandino. La sera prima avevo messo solo delle pezze per terra e non bastavano. Dopo che ho pulito per terra e forse ho fatto colazione intorno alle 11,30-12 mi sono cambiato e siamo usciti.

From RS’s ‘prison diary’, later (note that he says that HE was carrying the mop): “Appena arrivati in casa ho riposto il mocio nell’ingresso e mi sono diretto nelle altre stanze per vedere che diavolo era successo. Quei momenti li ricordo bene perché ero agitato e allarmato. Mi sembra di aver visto che Amanda prendeva il secchio del mocio e lo portava in un’altra stanza. Per prima cosa ho notato che la camera di Filomena aveva la porta spalancata. Ah, dimenticavo, Amanda ha aperto la casa con le chiavi (cosa che mi hanno ripetutamente chiesto visto che lei mi aveva detto che aveva trovato la porta di ingresso spalancata quando era entrata).”

The Giornale dell’Umbria of 16th January reports that two mops were found in the house: ‘The floor of the house was cleaned with bleach. The police believe one of the two mops in the house was used to do this.’ (Thanks again, Damian)

Why should it be important that AK carried the bucket, but not the mop, to another room?

(My apologies to Damian for putting him in the hot seat: but his reporting of what papa Sollecito said on Matrix is the crux of the matter: that she went to fetch the mop, and when they went back next day to return it, quel'orrore! None of which will be admissable; but the Sollectio family seem to be very liberal with the truth, if I may adapt Lord Armstrong's famous statement.)

On the subject of the mop and Doc Sollecito's story about the flood occurring the previous day, note that in his diary (I have only the English version translated by Belle at hand), Raffaele appears to state that the flooding incident occurred the previous DAY, but makes no mention of the mop at this point:

"I don't remember in reality at what time I ate, but certainly I ate and Amanda ate with me. The questions the agents of the Squadra Mobile me have made me to remember that that day the water pipe under to sink was detached and thing I find very suspicious, I've seen that it is not possible to so detach alone, at any rate, the fact is that it flooded half the house."

Indeed:

Non mi ricordo praticamente a che ora ho mangiato, ma sicuramente ho mangiato e Amanda ha mangiato con me. Le domande degli agenti della squadra mobile mi hanno fatto ricordare che quel giorno il tubo dell’acqua sotto al lavello si era sganciato e la cosa mi insospettisce molto, visto che non è possibile che si stacchi da solo, comunque sta di fatto che mi ha allagato mezza casa.

Quel giorno is 'that day'; not quella sera, 'that evening'. It was only the questions of the flying squad that has led him to remember that otherwise unimportant event.

'mi insospettesce molto' does indeed literally mean, 'made me very suspicious. But in the context, I would translate it s 'surprised me somwhat'.

There are two things to extract from this. Giorno=morning; sera=afternoon/evening; notte=night. One says buona sera to ones neigbours in Italy from about 15.30. We ate late=we ate after dark=notte.

And if it flooded half the house that 'day', immediate action would have been needed.

The truth lies in the nuances.

Sorry: he doesn't say "late" ; that comes from your translation; he says only that AK ate with him. But it is interesting that on many occasions both these suspects try to place themselves somewhere other that the cottage at 23.00 (phone call; fishblood etc.)

Minotaur wrote:Indeed:

Quel giorno is 'that day'; not quella sera, 'that evening'. It was only the questions of the flying squad that has led him to remember that otherwise unimportant event.

'mi insospettesce molto' does indeed literally mean, 'made me very suspicious. But in the context, I would translate it s 'surprised me somwhat'.

Thank you for clarifying the phrase about suspicion, which made no sense at all. I don't know if the translation of RS's diary that we have is a complete version. If not, it would be good to have the whole thing translated carefully into English. No insult intended to Belle, who I think did a Q&D translation that is fine as far as it goes. But as you say, Minotaur, the truth lies in the nuances. A nuance such as this one may be minor or critical, but I can't judge unless the translation is accurate.

Thanks Minotaur for the Mop information. I was looking for some summary. (Now, here's a perfect example of how this MB is helpful for finding and storing information efficiently. I do think we'll get the hang of it, eventually.)

[font=Comic Sans MS][align=center]Timeline Change[/font][/align]

[font=Comic Sans MS]I have made a 'simple' structural change to my Timeline which I hope will prove of use and convenience to fellow members. I have moved my 'Edit Notification' from the bottom of the Timeline to the top just below the title. As normal, I shall date and log any Timeline changes within the Edit Notification each time any changes are made (as well as insert the nature of the change/s). This should enable board members to tell at a glance, without having to scroll down all the way to the bottom of the Timeline, if there have been any recent informational changes to the Timeline since their last viewing that may warrant their perusal. It's a very simple change, but one that may prove expedient for the membership.[/font]

Michael.

In your timeline you say that Meredith's phone contacted a mobile service at 22:15.

That may not be correct.

When Meredith's mother was interviewed by Mignini about Meredith's 250 euro's it was all over the Italian press that the 22:15 call from Meredith's phone was an SMS to her bank requesting an account of her recent transactions. (an SMS would also fit with the short duration of the call, it would also indicate that Meredith was still alive as an SMS requires plenty of button punching and would not happen by accident)

Example:

Per chiarirlo gli inquirenti stanno approfondendo un duplice movente, sessuale ed economico. Anche perche' dall'indagine della polizia e' emerso che la sera in cui venne uccisa, il primo novembre intorno alle 22, dal telefono cellulare della Kercher venne inviato un sms alla sua banca per verificare i movimenti sul conto corrente.
quotidiano.net

Another link for the SMS to the bank:

Il giorno in cui fu uccisa, Meredith aveva prelevato 250 euro per pagare l'affitto. "Quei soldi - ha detto la madre della studentessa inglese accoltellata al collo sei mesi fa a Perugia - non so che fine abbiano fatto. Non so neppure se sono stati rubati". Sempre quella maledetta sera del primo novembre scorso, intorno alle 22, dal cellulare di Meredith partì un sms diretto alla sua banca per conoscere gli ultimi movimenti del conto corrente.

La Repubblica

I think Brian is right. Earlier reports indicated first a bank, then a mobile call service. Now we are back to a bank call (following Mignini's recent audience with Arline and Stephanie Kercher).

Brian S. wrote:Michael.

In your timeline you say that Meredith's phone contacted a mobile service at 22:15.

That may not be correct.

When Meredith's mother was interviewed by Mignini about Meredith's 250 euro's it was all over the Italian press that the 22:15 call from Meredith's phone was an SMS to her bank requesting an account of her recent transactions. (an SMS would also fit with the short duration of the call, it would also indicate that Meredith was still alive as an SMS requires plenty of button punching and would not happen by accident)

[font=Comic Sans MS]Brian, Skep...you are of course quite right, I indeed recall the discussion on this. I'll amend the Timeline accordingly. Thank you for pointing it out. Please don't hesitate in future to post any time you see something that requires changing.[/font]

Matteini: Phone printouts showed that Meredith cellphone started an Internet connection with her bank. And this at 22.25, right? At 22.15. Which means 10.15 / 10 and a half.

Rudy: There was no phone at home.

M: You haven't seen any phone?

R: None.

M: What should we say of this message sent from Meredith Cellphone? From printouts that we have it was sent from Meredith's house. So, that phone at 10.30 was at Meredith's place and you at 10.30 were at Meredith's place having... this fight with this person. So, explain us these facts because these are objective data. We got the objective datum that at 10.25 a message is sent from Meredith's cellphone and is sent from Meredith's place. You left Meredith's place at 10.30, 10.35, right?

R: Yes.

M: So, this message is sent from Meredith's house while the phone was there?

R: Yes, that wasn't me madam, I repeat.

perugia-shock


A copy and paste of part of my post in the discussion thread.

Matteini is saying that the SMS from Meredith's phone happened at 10:25 and not 10:15 as it appears in the timelines.

Matteini: Phone printouts showed that Meredith cellphone started an Internet connection with her bank. And this at 22.25, right? At 22.15. Which means 10.15 / 10 and a half.

Hi Brian. This doesn't look clear to me at all. It looks like she states "10:25, then looks at someone else and asks, "right?" Then she says "22:15" as if she's been corrected, but restates it as 10:15/10 and a half, as if to blur the lines.

[font=Comic Sans MS]I have to say I read it like Sparrow...but I'm unsure. I think I need to look into this time further for confirmation.[/font]

[align=center]Telenorba Video Timeline**[/align]

The following transcript of the Telenorba video was transcribed for the group by Tara

Although graphic and by general opinion, highly inappropriate, the Telenorba
piece had some clarifying information regarding the gathering of evidence
by the Crime Scene Investigators. I am assuming that this actual crime scene
footage is NOT in dispute as to it’s authenticity. I went through and put the
time and date stamp in chronological order with a brief description of what
was examined. What I took away from this, was the CSI was operational by
at least 15:10:45 on 11/2/07. (Of course, these short film clips are nowhere near
all the video that was taken!) The time of the final clip was 2:02:18 on 11/3/07
showing a MINIMUM of close to 11 hours of crime scene processing. From
what I could see, the CSI were covered head to toe with protective clothing
to prevent contamination. They were also extremely careful when bagging
evidence, IMO. The camera also zoomed in to a couple of areas which I
couldn’t figure out what they were zooming in on. For example, in the little
bathroom, they closed in on the floor area just past the blue bathmat – the
floor outside the shower stall. In addition, close attention was paid to the
top surface of that little cabinet that had the roll of TP on top.

11/2/2007: 15:10:45 - Quick pan of the living room
15:20:56 - Looking under duvet
15:30:15 - Small bathroom with zooms noted above
15:31:52 - The Victim under the duvet
15:31:53 - Zoom of corner made by left side of wardrobe and wall
15:31:57 - Zoom of visible blood spots on wardrobe doors
(there is a pair of jeans folded on shelf of wardrobe)
19:46:42 - Footprint in bedroom by evidence marker “A”
- Zoom of bra and dark colored underwear on the
floor at victim’s feet

11/3/2007: 00:20:05 - Special light on floor by evidence marker “3”, and
wiping some substance on floor
1:22:28 - Putting bra into evidence bag
1:46:18 - The Victim with duvet pulled back
1:52:42 - Zoom of the above at 1:46:18
2:02:18 - Looking at, and bagging a pair of jeans found on the
floor – jeans have a substantial amount of blood on them


12/18/2007 NTS* - Finding, picking up and bagging bra clasp which looks
to be on floor over by desk. Also, close examination
of a pair of tennis shoes and handbag in victims room

* No Time Stamp

** Please view the following post:

http://truecrimeweblog.freeforums.org/p ... .html#5951

bump

[font=Comic Sans MS]Just winding things down on the board a bit now as we move over to the new forum. I am therefore locking this thread.

Michael (Moderator)[/font]